Michigan Wolf Haters: Fuck Off And Die.

[ill-advised strategy]

I'm probably going to regret this but....

Why do you all hate ranchers? Do you consider anyone who raises cattle a rancher or is it just people who graze on federal lands? I have a dozen neighbors who raise beef for a living on their own land, do you hate them? Are you vegetarians and against eating animals and if so do you include down filled items in your boycott of animal products?

So many questions..... and I'm seriously curious, I'm not being flippant. I've been reading this thread with interest but I'm confused as to the rancher hate aspect.

I feel roughly the same way about ranchers as I do mormons. As individuals I almost always like them, if the shit hit the fan they're the ones I want to be with, but their politics as a group are ridiculous and inflammatory to my sensibilities.

[Dhelihiker]

And fuck ranchers.

'cept wolf ranchers, them is good.

Honestly where do you draw the line? Some hunting is OK but some is bad? Killing for food is cool but for a trophy is bad? I personally dont like hunters but I would like to shoot an elk or a pig or a turkey. I'm not sure how I've rationalized this. I guess elk is delicious, pigs are nasty, and turkeys have whiskey named after them.

I'll say this subject has more to discuss than whether hitting kids and women is wrong.

[spook]

I'm probably going to regret this but....

Why do you all hate ranchers? Do you consider anyone who raises cattle a rancher or is it just people who graze on federal lands? I have a dozen neighbors who raise beef for a living on their own land, do you hate them? Are you vegetarians and against eating animals and if so do you include down filled items in your boycott of animal products?

So many questions..... and I'm seriously curious, I'm not being flippant. I've been reading this thread with interest but I'm confused as to the rancher hate aspect.

maybe it's their oversized influence on certain parts of the government.

[spook]

shouldn't you have to justify your killing? if people want small government -- i bet lots of ranchers do -- why do they need so much help? one of the more realistic arguments for "smaller" government is -- where did i read that idea first? -- can't remember -- but anyway, that every aspect and agency of government should justify it's existence for more than the mere profit of the government and powerful -- that any intrusion into the private life of the citizen should be justifed beyond the mere continuation of the government in power? if some folks want to hold the public government to that standard, shouldn't they consider justifying their intrusion into the world?

[liv2ski]

I'm probably going to regret this but....

Why do you all hate ranchers? Do you consider anyone who raises cattle a rancher or is it just people who graze on federal lands? I have a dozen neighbors who raise beef for a living on their own land, do you hate them? Are you vegetarians and against eating animals and if so do you include down filled items in your boycott of animal products?

So many questions..... and I'm seriously curious, I'm not being flippant. I've been reading this thread with interest but I'm confused as to the rancher hate aspect.

KQ, I can not speak for others, but my take, living in a city, is I eat mammal meat maybe once a week. I could leave it tomorrow, as I prefer fish and poultry. I do not appreciate the fact that the ranchers have so much political sway, that they get everyone all pissed off at wolves, just because the state loses a 100 cows a year. BFD.
Frankly, if people can't live with the top tier predators (wolves, mountain lions, bears, etc) I would prefer those areas be shut down from use by people. We have a shit load of room in this country. Lets give the animals a little space to live. We have stolen every inch from every living creature. It is time to give some back in my opinion.

[KQ]

KQ, I can not speak for others, but my take, living in a city, is I eat mammal meat maybe once a week. I could leave it tomorrow, as I prefer fish and poultry. I do not appreciate the fact that the ranchers have so much political sway, that they get everyone all pissed off at wolves, just because the state loses a 100 cows a year. BFD.
Frankly, if people can't live with the top tier predators (wolves, mountain lions, bears, etc) I would prefer those areas be shut down from use by people. We have a shit load of room in this country. Lets give the animals a little space to live. We have stolen every inch from every living creature. It is time to give some back in my opinion.

Well... I've got a cougar in my CRP along the river. In the past 5 months has killed three of my neighbor's cattle and another neighbor's horse. These animals were on private property (i.e. not federal land), that is fenced and all were killed within a short distance from the owner's residence. We live in a well established area that has been farmed for over 100 years. Most lots are 10 acres but some like myself have more - it isn't a sparsely populated area.. The Blue Mountains are about as close to us as the Cascades are to Bellevue. Cougar has moved in on us rather than us moving in on him/her. Should we all up and sell our land and move to Seattle or just accept that the cougar is there and continue to let it kill our animals? It is a conundrum and I will admit that my attitude towards all of this has changed since moving here - I can now better understand both sides of the issue and find the situation both complex and dynamic.

[spook]

Cougar has moved in on us rather than us moving in on him/her

haven't heard that one in a while

[KQ]

Cougar has moved in on us rather than us moving in on him/her

haven't heard that one in a while

yeah yeah yeah.... animals/people.... chicken/egg HOWEVER.... this particular cougar is not old enough to have been around before people moved in and started building houses over 100 years ago. This cougar has plenty of wildlife to dine on but has taken to shooting fish in a barrel. My neighbors have children who would like to play outside. As I said, it is a complex and dynamic issue. That said, cougar is still out running around, no one has killed it and everyone hopes it will move on.

Here's a couple of questions (and again - just asking because it popped into my mind not trying to start a fight)

Does anyone think Native Americans killed large predators who posed a hazard?

Along the lines of the chicken/egg thing:

At what point do we say a place belongs more to humans than animals AND if it always belongs to animals then why not reintroduce cougar/wolves/bears to the shores of Elliot Bay in downtown Seattle where they once roamed?

[Harry]

Does anyone think Native Americans killed large predators

Of course they did. The difference is they honored the animal. The bozo's who are modern wolf hunters hate wolves instead of honoring them. Big difference.

[spook]

yeah yeah yeah.... animals/people.... chicken/egg HOWEVER.... this particular cougar is not old enough to have been around before people moved in and started building houses over 100 years ago. This cougar has plenty of wildlife to dine on but has taken to shooting fish in a barrel. My neighbors have children who would like to play outside. As I said, it is a complex and dynamic issue. That said, cougar is still out running around, no one has killed it and everyone hopes it will move on.

Here's a couple of questions (and again - just asking because it popped into my mind not trying to start a fight)

Does anyone think Native Americans killed large predators who posed a hazard?

Along the lines of the chicken/egg thing:

At what point do we say a place belongs more to humans than animals AND if it always belongs to animals then why not reintroduce cougar/wolves/bears to the shores of Elliot Bay in downtown Seattle where they once roamed?

jesus christ this is almost heartwarming in it's predictability. people/animals :: chicken/egg? really? seriously? fish in a barrel is the american way. do you hate america?

[buttahflake]

Of course they did. The difference is they honored the animal. The bozo's who are modern wolf hunters hate wolves instead of honoring them. Big difference.

what does this mean, honored the animal?
were you there?
when they savagely butchered animals in the wild.
white guilt is teh funneh
shut up hippies

[Tippster]

I'm probably going to regret this but....

Why do you all hate ranchers? Do you consider anyone who raises cattle a rancher or is it just people who graze on federal lands? I have a dozen neighbors who raise beef for a living on their own land, do you hate them? Are you vegetarians and against eating animals and if so do you include down filled items in your boycott of animal products?

So many questions..... and I'm seriously curious, I'm not being flippant. I've been reading this thread with interest but I'm confused as to the rancher hate aspect.

As a dyed-in-the-wool carnivore I don't hate ranchers, quite the opposite, but a select group of people out West who get nearly free grazing rights complaining about the loss of a couple dozen head a year and using that as an excuse to eradicate a species is kinda hard to empathize with.

[bushman]

Now we have one less.
http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/con...is-hunting-dog

[Millsie]

A hunting season is not eradicating wolves. Its a controlled hunt that is stopped when the harvest goal is reached. Hunting is a way to control the population. What is so hard to understand? Hunters are the true conservationists. They pay for all the habitat and wildlife we have.

[Cruiser]

Of course they did. The difference is they honored the animal. The bozo's who are modern wolf hunters hate wolves instead of honoring them. Big difference.

Almost certainly doesn't make any difference to the dead wolf whether or not his corpse was honored.

[KQ]

jesus christ this is almost heartwarming in it's predictability. people/animals :: chicken/egg? really? seriously?

Yes, really, seriously - I'm exploring the subject, trying to come to an understanding (at least for myself - you probably wouldn't come to the same one but that's how we all work). Humans have been here on earth as long as most current animal species. It's not like we just fell from the sky. For the most part we occupy the high spot in the food chain. Animals (non-human) who occupy that spot kill other animals for food, territory, dominance and survival. A mother bear will kill a predator who threatens her young just as a human might kill a cougar that threatens their children as is the situation where i live right now (but no one has and more than likely will not). It is nature in all it's beauty and cruelty.

Obviously I've detoured off the subject of the original discussion re: intentional wolf hunts. What I am trying to figure out, for myself, is where the line is regarding who comes out on top in situations where animal/human paths cross. Yes humans are (allegedly) of higher intelligence and have more choice but it's not like humans are living in areas that are not "natural to them" (as opposed to say a camel living in Alaska). Humans/animals migrate and their paths cross, in a purely "natural world" it is most likely the higher predator would come out on top.

Anyhoo..... just explaining where I was going. I think I've exhausted my own curiosity in this subject and will continue to coexist as I have been doing because I'm not interested in killing anything. Speaking of which I need to put up my new "No Hunting" signs before modern firearm season opens. Got some good ones this year from this site:

My Safety Sign

[creaky fossil]

"The farther away you live from wolves and their genuine life impact, the more pro-wolf you're likely to be."

--Terry Wieland, Gray's Sporting Journal, Sept./Oct. 2014

hunting magazine for the uber-rich giving us a modern Wealthy American Leisure-Class Adult spin on the Big Bad Wolf idiom from childhood fairy tales, but heckuva job Brownie!

[hellojello74]

Hunting wolves is tough business . if you look into it if you are not using helis of poison pretty much not going to make a dent. Something like less than 10% on a non quota hunt. In fact over time it creates more wolves as it fractures packs then they form new ones ect. Wolf management is very complex. Also wolves will be last animal standing . smart sneaky killers of everything. But they are cool

[KQ]

hunting magazine for the uber-rich giving us a modern Wealthy American Leisure-Class Adult spin on the Big Bad Wolf idiom from childhood fairy tales, but heckuva job Brownie!

Regardless of who said it, it holds some water. It is merely a variation on a theme - "where you stand depends on where you sit" and "out of sight, out of mind".

Perspectives change when you are in the thick of it and I think a lot of people would come to see there is another side to be considered if large predators started roaming their neighborhoods. What conclusions they might come to regarding how to address it I don't know but I bet even money they would be uneasy with the idea.

[glademaster]

Regardless of who said it, it holds some water. It is merely a variation on a theme - "where you stand depends on where you sit" and "out of sight, out of mind".

Perspectives change when you are in the thick of it and I think a lot of people would come to see there is another side to be considered if large predators started roaming their neighborhoods. What conclusions they might come to regarding how to address it I don't know but I bet even money they would be uneasy with the idea.

If you make the choice to live somewhere that is currently habitat for large predators, or was habitat for them before humans extirpated them, you acknowledge the fact that they will be a part of your life. They have more right to be there than you or I do. If you don't like it, move somewhere paved.

Except in the case of legitimately invasive predators, and no, extirpated and returning predators are NOT invasive, no matter how much you want them to be KQ, I fully believe the native predatory species should be respected, they have an intrinsic right to the area that humans never have and never will. If you don't like it, move somewhere paved, to reiterate.

[MontuckyFried]

"The farther away you live from wolves and their genuine life impact, the more pro-wolf you're likely to be."

--Terry Wieland, Gray's Sporting Journal, Sept./Oct. 2014

Funny. Now that I live closer to wolves than ever before, I'm more pro-wolf than I've ever been. They are amazing animals. They don't mess with people. RARELY mess with domestic livestock, and yes, under a 100 out of 2.6 million head is pretty rare IMO.

The blind hatred toward wolves I've heard people spew has been entirely disproportionate to their actual threat. If a rancher sees a cougar or a wolf on his lands stalking his animals, of course he should have the right to defend them and take out a predator here and there. That is a far cry from people wanting to eradicate the entire species from the area.

Also funny how few people look at the effects their actions have on entire ecosystems. Think about how ranchers and farmers down South are constantly bitching about feral hogs wreaking havoc on their lands. It's true, those little bastards destroy everything. Well, think about if they hadn't wiped out all the natural predators in those areas. Wolves, cougars and bears all used to have much broader ranges, covering most of the Americas. Cougars and such love to snack on hogs. Now we've all heard about how the hogs are rapidly expanding their range at an alarming rate. Yet the same people complaining about the hogs are also wanting to eradicate the very animal that could help them out? From a farming perspective, I'd much rather lose a few head of livestock here and there than have hundreds of acres of land and crops destroyed. Much easier and cheaper (esp with the feds paying them) to replace some cattle than have to constantly rescrape, replow, replant, and repair damaged land. I say this from experience. Pigs have jacked up hundreds of acres of family land. I would LOVE to have a few wolves around to help us out with the problem.

[creaky fossil]

Regardless of who said it, it holds some water. It is merely a variation on a theme - "where you stand depends on where you sit" and "out of sight, out of mind".

Perspectives change when you are in the thick of it and I think a lot of people would come to see there is another side to be considered if large predators started roaming their neighborhoods. What conclusions they might come to regarding how to address it I don't know but I bet even money they would be uneasy with the idea.

what, it's a legitimate thought because some thoughts can be legitimate and this just may be one of them?

hilarious

how about those big-scale predators of the homo sapiens class? clearly we should worry endlessly about canids, and you're quite the Hipster Ironist with your blase obfuscations uttered apathetically

[spook]

I feel roughly the same way about ranchers as I do mormons. As individuals I almost always like them, if the shit hit the fan they're the ones I want to be with, but their politics as a group are ridiculous and inflammatory to my sensibilities.

hey did you know a lot of polygamist mormons go to crossfit in utah?

[Timberridge]

hey did you know a lot of polygamist mormons go to crossfit in utah?

Those places won't be in business long if they offer a family plan.

[KQ]

If you make the choice to live somewhere that is currently habitat for large predators, or was habitat for them before humans extirpated them, you acknowledge the fact that they will be a part of your life. They have more right to be there than you or I do. If you don't like it, move somewhere paved.

Ahhhh but see predators lived in almost all places that are now paved - perhaps they should be brought back there too and the habitat restored. That idea seems to say that humans have no right to be anywhere but are we not animals too who walk this earth? In my previous post I explored this idea. I said it before - it is a complex issue and I have no answer. I am not arguing for or against merely trying to understand where everyone is coming from and the implications of each situation. I don't know about everyone else but I need to explore all sides before I can take a stand and it's entirely possible that I will find it not possible and that each individual situation must be judged on it's own merits rather than adopt a blanket response.