AvaTech SP1

[Meadow Skipper]

Definitely not giving you shear strength, but I don't think that matters. Unless you are carrying around a shear frame you aren't getting shear strength in your pits either. Regardless, modern fracture models are not shear based.

??? I pretty much always do compression tests and shovel shear tests, and I feel like those tests provide really valuable info.

[Name Redacted]

??? I pretty much always do compression tests and shovel shear tests, and I feel like those tests provide really valuable info.

And they do. As others have said, probably the best way to use this device would be to dig a pit, do compression tests, cross reference your results with the probe, then travel across the slope, aspect, or elevation, and see if you are getting the same results. If things change, dig another pit and start over. The point is to reduce the spacial variability of digging just one pit, in one isolated area and assuming the same conditions exist across the entire slope.

If you find the point where the snow is shearing from other layers, then it you can choose to assume that the weak layer, which is identified in your pit and probably correlates to a difference in hardness which your SP1 will pick up, will be where the slope will shear at other point across the slope.

So it's a tool to be used in conjunction with the many other tools that you are carrying. It also has the added ability to expedite the data collection process by sending the collected data instantly to a website where you can review it later. Not just having to read what you scribbled down in your little blue AIARE book while your hands were freezing.

[Meadow Skipper]

...Good stuff snipped...

... It also has the added ability to expedite the data collection process by sending the collected data instantly to a website where you can review it later. Not just having to read what you scribbled down in your little blue AIARE book while your hands were freezing.

A little thread drift here, but this involves some good maggot stuff. I use the Ullr Labs app now, and it's better than the AIARE book, and even better than Hacksaw's (sorry dude, it's a great book, but it's a book). Anyway Ullr Lab's app is a mag deal and it puts a really nice profile in my (and anyone's) email box that I can print and/or post. Requires a smartphone. I'm not spansored - paid the price - I use it at work and just like it, and wanted to give a shout out.

But I can see the usefulness of the integrated unit like AvaTech.

[Name Redacted]

That is pretty cool. I had something like that on my old phone but it now resides somewhere in the depths of Teocalli bowl.

But is it hard to use in the cold? Battery life in the cold? If my hands are cold, I can't even use my current phone, but it's a POS and the battery dies if you look at it funny.

People dig pits incorrectly all the time, and I'm sure this tool will be misused too. But if used correctly, I can see the advantage. Honestly, I will probably never use one, but I will benefit from the knowledge gained from them. Hopefully it can be shared through your local avy report. I'm guessing it will as a few of the CAIC guys are involved according to the website and video.

[moose pit]

interesting...
In the hands of the crowd that relies on gear and more gear rather than experience and observation this would likely be about as useful as a beacon that is left in the glovebox. But it is a cool tool and coupled with field obs I bet it would provide great info, but in the hands of the general public it would probably just be another gadget.

[Meadow Skipper]

That is pretty cool. I had something like that on my old phone but it now resides somewhere in the depths of Teocalli bowl.

But is it hard to use in the cold? Battery life in the cold? If my hands are cold, I can't even use my current phone, but it's a POS and the battery dies if you look at it funny.

I have an Ottercase for the phone and battery life isn't an issue because I put the phone in my pants pocket (stays warm) and it's off until I get to the work site. But your fingers are going to get cold - that's just a fact o' life for pits. It helps to have someone along to do the recording and swap out frigid digits.

[Tap]

[PNWbrit]

but in the hands of the general public it would probably just be another gadget.

Absolutely.

It's clearly not intended for them (us) though.

[shafty85]

Interesting tool. Obviously a lot of questions regarding it that will be answered in time.

Anyone know how it measures slope angle?

[PNWbrit]

Laying it on the snow? Probably.

[shafty85]

^^^ I guess.... that seems flawed, though... At least to my mind. Also, why do you use it 'straight up' and down? Shouldn't you probe perpendicular to the slope, similar to when probing for a burial victim? Seems strange to me.

[PNWbrit]

^^^ I guess.... that seems flawed, though... At least to my mind. Also, why do you use it 'straight up' and down? Shouldn't you probe perpendicular to the slope, similar to when probing for a burial victim? Seems strange to me.

Do you do your pit profiles perpendicular to slope or vertically?

Laying prob on slope will also record aspect.

[shafty85]

Ah, good point - totally had probing, in an avi scenario, stuck on the brain.

Still not sure about the slope measurement - perhaps it is the best procedure, but not convinced at this point in time.

I suppose all of this will get worked out as it is put through the paces.

[WaistDeepGroomers]

Would mags want an Ask Me Anything with the AvaTech guys? Could probably set it up, so just lemme know and I'll coordinate with those MIT nerds .

[homemadesalsa]

I did a Q&A with those guys for the fall issue of The Avalanche Review. Also got to play with one up on the pass one day. Cool tool. To me, the best part of it is how one profile fits into the greater whole on a GIS small scale on a computer map. I can see the spatial variability (limited, certainly) of a layer, eg is that surface hoar up in the park or just in Mail Cabin.

Here's a copy of the article:

[wag]

Does it matter how fast I probe?
The SP1 stratigraphy collection is somewhat sensitive to speed

Answer: YES! it always matters how fast you probe

[SchralphMacchio]

What would be tits would be having a high-speed sampling thermocouple integrated into the thing, and have a relative temperature profile (I assume absolute would be difficult to make accurate based on the probe materials) down the profile, then you could also track relative changes and better understand facet development or strengthening.

I'll need to read the TAR paper to see if the addition of high-noise data ends up complicating the forecasting process rather than simplifying it. When I say "high noise," I mean that I anticipate lots of measurement variability in thin snowpacks due to micro terrain features, and I wonder if the increased sample size creates more questions than answers. Kind of like how if you sampled a large population of men for PSA, you would suddenly also have an increase in cancer diagnosis.

[abraham]

Are there good high speed thermocouples? An alternative might be to have several along the length and let it sit for a minute. That wouldn't give you detailed data by layer but it might be more useful overall.

[cliffhucker]

I've been reading into this, and followed this forum, but it seems like identifying the hardness of layers has never been a really difficult problem. Identifying which ones are a hazard, and how much of a hazard seems far more important. I feel like this is an expensive toy that points out the obvious, If you need your probe to tell you slope angle, aspect, and gps coordinates, you have other issues. If you still have to dig a pit, which will show you the exact same thing as this in a minute, plus you get to examine what that layer actually is and what it's doing, why would anyone spend 1,500 on this thing? IF a ton of people adopt it and use it to log information onto a their AvaNet, there could be some use, but most avalanche centers already have a map based page showing observations.

[adrenalated]

^^^ a pit does indeed tell you the hardness, but only in a subjective form. 2 finger, 3 finger, etc. can't be compared between different people because how hard did each person push to get their two fingers to go in? This provides objective data that can be compared accurately between multiple people, which is highly important IMO for forecasters, guides, etc.

No, it does not identify hazard or tell you anything about the interaction between layers. So digging a pit is still necessary to perform stability tests and analysis. The AvaTech provides objective hardness data. The pit gives you stability data. THEN you can use the AvaTech to find out if the layering/hardness profile that you found in your pit is widespread over a lot of terrain, or confined to that one specific location. If you find a layering structure with the AvaTech that is highly similar to what you found in your pit, you can probably assume that the stability is going to be pretty similar in that location as it was in your pit. If the layering is significantly different, you can probably assume that stability is different too.

I don't think anyone, including AvaTech, think that this will be a replacement for digging a pit, I think it just has the potential to make pit data a lot more useful.

[SchralphMacchio]

How many people commenting in this thread have actually learned SWAG observation protocols? This is not a tool for anyone who doesn't already know SWAG, in my opinion!

[Hugh Conway]

^^^ a pit does indeed tell you the hardness, but only in a subjective form. 2 finger, 3 finger, etc. can't be compared between different people because how hard did each person push to get their two fingers to go in? This provides objective data that can be compared accurately between multiple people, which is highly important IMO for forecasters, guides, etc..

It certainly can be compared between people; it just has bigger error bars. Every measurement method has variability between testers. It may be small and negligible, but it exists. Automation will reduce the variability and decrease the time; but unless you are a dipshit middle manager it doesn't make something foolproof, really. Looking at this the bigger advantage would be time - quicker measurements = more measurements.

[adrenalated]

It certainly can be compared between people; it just has bigger error bars. Every measurement method has variability between testers. It may be small and negligible, but it exists. Automation will reduce the variability and decrease the time; but unless you are a dipshit middle manager it doesn't make something foolproof, really. Looking at this the bigger advantage would be time - quicker measurements = more measurements.

Totally agree on both counts. Significantly decreases variability would have been a better way for me to put it.

[media310]

http://mtnweekly.com/reviews/avatech-sp1-review

I like this a lot, especially the idea of collecting data with the SkiTracks program at Montana State - http://www.montana.edu/wwwes/facilit...in=snowscience

This is win win for our community, more people are going out these days and we (yes maggots) need to help keep everyone safe

[bodywhomper]

bump. this all looks updated.... http://avatech.com/

yes/no? new thoughts?