PM Gear skis: How damp is the ride? And 4frnt Renegade vs Kusala Pow

[DGamms]

Question for all the mags that have ridden PM Gear sticks:

How damp is the ride quality? I'm not talking stiffness or deflection in crud, but specifically how much vibration from rough snow surfaces is felt by the skier? For those that have skied both, is there a major difference between their pure carbon and their hybrid layups? I like damp skis, skis that absorb little vibrations "like a rubber ball that won't bounce" (to quote Blister).

The end game: I'm trying to justify buying some Kusala Pow stiffs to replace my 186 Renegades. People that have skied both please weigh in. The Kusalas would serve as both a resort pow ski and a sidecountry/short day backcountry stick for deeper days in the Wasatch.

When compared to Renegades, do the Kusala Pows:
- Have a fatter, more rounded, less pinned tail (pics look like this is true)?
- Have a rec'd mount point 1-2 cm back from the Rens?
- Measure a true 186 cm straight pull?
- Have a damper ride quality on crappy snow?
- Have a larger fore/aft sweet spot for balance?
- Have any other significant differences in how they ski?

Thanks all

[Atrain505]

If you want damp make sure you go for the hybrid option. There is a difference between pure carbon and hybrid in my mind in the single respect of dampness. Haven't skied the renegades.

[Lindahl]

Question for all the mags that have ridden PM Gear sticks:

How damp is the ride quality? I'm not talking stiffness or deflection in crud, but specifically how much vibration from rough snow surfaces is felt by the skier? For those that have skied both, is there a major difference between their pure carbon and their hybrid layups? I like damp skis, skis that absorb little vibrations "like a rubber ball that won't bounce" (to quote Blister).

The end game: I'm trying to justify buying some Kusala Pow stiffs to replace my 186 Renegades. People that have skied both please weigh in. The Kusalas would serve as both a resort pow ski and a sidecountry/short day backcountry stick for deeper days in the Wasatch.

When compared to Renegades, do the Kusala Pows:
- Have a fatter, more rounded, less pinned tail (pics look like this is true)?
- Have a rec'd mount point 1-2 cm back from the Rens?
- Measure a true 186 cm straight pull?
- Have a damper ride quality on crappy snow?
- Have a larger fore/aft sweet spot for balance?
- Have any other significant differences in how they ski?

Thanks all

I have extra stiff hybrids. I have extra stiff pures on the way. I briefly skied Renegades over 4 days.

Not sure about shape differences. I believe you're correct though.

Mount point is about 85 from the tail, 99.5 from tip = about -7.25 from true center. Renegades are 87 from tail, -5 from true center. I mounted my Kusalas at -1cm, so 84 from the tail (will double check when I get home). This put the center of the sidecut right underneath the ball of my foot (how I try to mount most skis).

Measures at 184.5cm (will double check when I get home).

Never compared them in rough hard snow - other than to access the goods (didn't pay attention to ride quality). The Kusalas seem to work fine, and are suitably damp. Just not the best width and shape. I really like some minimal camber on firm snow - gives you stability in turn transitions.

Much larger fore/aft sweet spot. Both when driving the tips in pow, and when stomping.

They both are awesome in side to side quickness and have that bounce from one turn to the next Hojiesque feel to them. Also both are extremely frictionless in powder - faster than any other ski I've ridden (haven't skied any other true reverse camber skis before). Basically my Kusalas felt just like the Renegades, except I could actually drive the tips and they stomped cliffs way better. I felt much more in balance on landings.

In every way, the Kusalas were a better ski for me. The best powder ski I've ever been on, period, and by quite a large margin. I'd like to try a 191, but the 186 worked well for me still.

[DGamms]

Thanks for the replies. Atrain, sounds like you have experience riding both PM Gear layups. If the hybrid is damper, then how undamp do the pure carbons feel? Pingy, twitchy undamp? Any other mags riding PM gear pure skis care to weigh in?

Lindhal, thanks for the detailed Ren vs Kusala comparison. I'm curious as to why you are ordering pures too... Touring only sticks? Please update with comparisons on your two pairs of Kusalas when you get a chance. Also, what generation of Rens did you try for four days? Were they mounted at 87 cm from tail?

Anyone else who has time on both Rens and Kusalas, please weigh in with your take too.

[TAFKALVS]

Having skied and owned both... if you're worried about dampness or skiing resort snow buy hybrids.

[auvgeek]

Pure carbon skis, whether PM Gear or DPS or others, just don't make sense to me in the resort. PM Gear and DPS have been trying to dampen out the ride of their pure carbon skis by adding rubber (and metal) at the expense of some extra weight, but it still isn't as damp as a fiberglass construction. The Pures sure are great for touring, though, and I appreciate the extra dampness they're trying to inject into the Pures for a minimal weight gain.

Also: I skied the Kusalas for a day or two after spending a bunch of time on the Rens...but I had skied hard for like 11 of 14 days, so my legs weren't particularly fresh. I remember thinking that they felt very damp and stable at speed, more so than the Ren. They did seem to lose some of the quickness side-to-side compared to the Ren, but it could have been my legs at that point. (That was the 2nd and 3rd gen Rens mounted 87 from tail.) I think the biggest gain is the stiffness: I think rev/rev skis (the Ren is close to rev sidecut) are better the stiffer they are, which is a distinct advantage to PM Gear. I think an extra-stiff version could make them less finicky fore-aft and allow you to drive the tips, which would be very nice.

Just some thoughts and speculation.

[pfluffenmeister]

No time on either the Renegade or Kusala for me but I own and have skied both layups of the PMGear 191 Lhasa Fat.

The hybrid is much better at crud crushing and skiing in mixed conditions.
The pure is noticeably lighter, faster edge to edge, has more energy return for poppy porpoise turns, and is more fun in homogeneous snow conditions (not just pow).

I'm keeping the hybrids for resort skiing and selling the pures as I don't get BC much.

My hybrids are pretty stiff and, weigh ~4#12oz.
The pures were made softer, but definitely have backbone, come in at ~4#3oz.

[Lindahl]

Lindhal, thanks for the detailed Ren vs Kusala comparison. I'm curious as to why you are ordering pures too... Touring only sticks? Please update with comparisons on your two pairs of Kusalas when you get a chance. Also, what generation of Rens did you try for four days? Were they mounted at 87 cm from tail?

I tried 186cm Renegades with the owl on it - 2nd gen? Pretty sure they were mounted at 87cm from the tail - on the line.

Measured out the Kusalas - they measure 184.5cm, and I mounted them at 84.5cm from the tail. The line was at 99cm from the tip, so I mounted them -1cm from the line. Also threw them on the scale, they weigh around 3700g with the CAST system on them, which is about 1060 for the STH14s and 300 for the CAST system, which is about 5.15lbs or 2340g per ski.

The way the resorts are set up here, they either have good sidecountry and so-so inbounds terrain or visa versa. Because of this, I usually either ski inbounds all day or ski untracked sidecountry or backcountry all day. I rarely ski a mixture of both. On inbounds powder days, I love to ski alpine chop and 124mm is just too wide for doing that all day long. Its fun in the morning, but by afternoon it starts to beat me up. Right now I'm using some Wrenegades, but am tempted to try going a bit narrower. I was really impressed by the new DPS Wailer 105s on a 2' day we had. The Kusaslas are my nearcountry ski - slack and back. I use a shorter, skinnier and lighter ski for big touring days.

I probably would NOT have bought another pair of Kusalas, except the all-black topsheet drove me nuts last year. The snow collection could get REALLY bad on warmer days. When the PM Gear sale went on, and I found I could order them with light-colored topsheets, I couldn't resist. I suppose I could have done a hybrid layup, but I figured since I mostly use them in purely untracked snow, I'd give the pure layup a try, and see if it worked for me. There isn't a huge difference in weight, only about 1/2lb per ski, but I suppose every little bit adds up. If I wanted soft pures, it'd be a much bigger weight loss, but I like the extra stiff flex option - pretty sure thats a big part of why they ski better than the Renegades, along with the mount point.

[Atrain505]

Basically what everyone else said.

Pure carbon. Lighter, snappier, more rebound. Popping out of aggressive turns can be quite fun. You can literally feel the energy of the ski. A ton of fun on smooth snow. Pow, chalk, groomers, anything smooth. I've had turns where I literally laugh and go wow at the energy of the ski. So much fun! When things get choppy, icy, etc they transmit more of the vibrations into your legs almost like a resonation.

Hybrid...smoother, more consistent response, slower, less energetic, damper. Better for any kind of variable snow. I.e. what you mostly find in resorts.

That's the beauty of PMGear though. Choice. Soft or stiff. Traditional sidecut or pintail or modern/reverse (kusala...not sure how to refer to that style of ski ). Carbon or hybrid. Essentially if you are lucky enough to have tried lots of skis out there then its easy to know what works for your type of skiing and what doesn't.
Personally I'm a hybrid, super stiff, pintail type of guy. I find the hybrid to work for everything pretty damn well. Pure carbon is my touring rig. Stiff because it will never let you down where soft skis do sometimes. Pintail because I love to dump speed at will, but still love more ski in front of me than the more modern shapes. I find them more predictable and stable.

But I have a pair of super stiff kusalas staring at me. I cannot wait to ski them. I haven't really been impressed with other modern shapes that so many people seem to rave about, but I think the kusalas have attributes that could eliminate my concerns when skiing reverse type shapes. If I like them as much as I think I will then perhaps the next spot in PMGear's lineup should be a thinner version of the kusala. 114 in the waist. That way you have the all a rounder and the mega pow day version. Ski season can't come soon enough.

[skifishbum]

spose i've skied as many incarnations of splats passions as anyone.
Cant offer much that aint been said, other than call splat tell him what you seek out of the kusala and he'll do his damnest to give you whacha want
my hybrid kusalas are mounted @ 99.5 and tape out a bit short because the tails ground flat and the tips were sanded slightly more than other pairs
skied a few runs on icemans kusalas w/ demo binders and somewhere tween 99- 100 seemed to be the sweet spot.
skied skindepens 196 rens for a couple laps late in the day and i didn't expect a 196 w/ heavy ass demobinders to ski like a 186 dyna rig they skied pretty similiar.

[kevino]

It is worth noting that Pat has on occasion used some rubber in the carbon skis to help minimize the vibration. He did it in my pair of carbon Kusalas, which I found to be a nice touch.

[auvgeek]

perhaps the next spot in PMGear's lineup should be a thinner version of the kusala. 114 in the waist. That way you have the all a rounder and the mega pow day version. Ski season can't come soon enough.

+1 for sure!

[DGamms]

Thanks all for the replies. Kevino, interesting idea on the added rubber. I may go that route if I end up ordering pures.

I had asked Splat last winter about making a ~115 waisted Kusala. He said it wasn't in the cards, but I'm guessing if there were enough interest he might be convinced to make them.

[Lindahl]

He might be able to press a Bro Fat with the Kusala rocker mold? Wouldn't have the sidecut/rocker matchup, but I'm not so sold on if that really matters. I know he did that for the vikings up north with the skinny Bro. Worth asking about at least.

Another option is the Down Showdown 115. My experience with hybrid PMGear skis and the Down Countdown 102 tells me that they have a similarly damp hybrid layup. The 102 is a phenominal ski, so I can only imagine the Showdown 115 that it's based on is awesome as well. Email them as I know they can ship to the US. The Countdown 102 was exactly the ski that I wanted Pat to make last year (see the Bro Tech 179 lift thread). Basically a lightweight Cochise with bomber construction.

EDIT:

Got bored at work today and stumbled upon this video, where 4FRNT, near the end, talks about how stiffer construction makes for a better reverse camber ski, outlining why, along with Eric nodding along in the background:


Kind of touches on my theory as to why I like my extra stiff Kusalas better than the Renegades.

[splat]

Thanks all for the replies. Kevino, interesting idea on the added rubber. I may go that route if I end up ordering pures.

I had asked Splat last winter about making a ~115 waisted Kusala. He said it wasn't in the cards, but I'm guessing if there were enough interest he might be convinced to make them.

Get me 15 orders and I'll do them starting in November, DGamms.

[DGamms]

Bam. Just like that, Splat throws down the gauntlet.

Splat, would the skinny Kusala have the same rocker lines and tip splay as the current Kusala Pow? Dimensions of about 124/116/120? Any guesses on the projected weights on such a ski with stiff construction for pures and hybrids?

Anyone else out there interested in a skinny Kusala?

[DGamms]

Hmmm, the dimensions I listed above make for a pretty damn straight ski. I just looked up the dims on the old 4rnt EHP in a 186cm: 129/116/122. And that was a pretty damn straight ski too (although still one of my favorites).

Ideas from the collective on dimensions for a 186 cm skinny Kusala? Something more like 126/114/121?

[JRainey]

I would keep the tip/waist/tail ratios the same as the kusala. No need to mess with success, but I'll defer to the experts. I think 114 under foot sound better than 116, but theres not a real difference I guess.

This would be the best all around ski.

The kusalas I got, hybrid, pretty stiff, with really flexy tip. They are more fun all around compared to the OG Rens. Same stiffness, way lighter, and less planky. The body is really stiff for me (155lbs), but the flexy tips just get up and over shit. I was skiing these with tech bindings and mercuries exclusively and they don't give up too much power over the rens, alpine with 130 boots and zipfits (can't flex those boots).

I could take a softer version for all around, tracked powder, and euro death mank skiing, but in fresh powder I love the stiffness.

They are my all time favorite powder ski. EHP still holds the crown for all time favorite everything ski. 124mm is just too fat sometimes.

[splat]

Hey, Guys, based on all this positive feedback, I have the intern working on the design of this new, skinnier Kusala. I told him to go with a 115 waist.

[DGamms]

Whoa... That development probably deserves it's own new thread. What do you want to call it Splat?

The skinny Kusala? The Kusala Tour? The OSQ Kusala? The Kusala 115?

[skifishbum]

i'd call it the splatchaleanie
or splatchaloonie got a ring to it

[splat]

Let's treat it like a papoose; name it after we see how they ski and what strikes us as appropriate.

[Lindahl]

Hey, Guys, based on all this positive feedback, I have the intern working on the design of this new, skinnier Kusala. I told him to go with a 115 waist.

Cool!

The kusalas I got, hybrid, pretty stiff, with really flexy tip. They are more fun all around compared to the OG Rens. Same stiffness, way lighter, and less planky. The body is really stiff for me (155lbs), but the flexy tips just get up and over shit. I was skiing these with tech bindings and mercuries exclusively and they don't give up too much power over the rens, alpine with 130 boots and zipfits (can't flex those boots).

What do you mean by less planky? I never really have understood what people mean when they say 'planky'...

[shafty85]

So, it would appear, from the comments here, that the hybrid Kusala is approximately as damp as the Ren and possibly easier to ski/has a bigger sweet spot. The Renegade is ~5.5#/ski in the 186. What would an equally stiff (so, stiff? or extra stiff? ) Kusala weigh?

[Lindahl]

Less - probably stiff, but the very tips will be softer I believe. The extra stiffs I have are a little over 5lbs each. Probably 5.15? I could see stiffs coming in at 5lbs even.