14/?? The OFFICIAL Tahoe Thread

[powfiend]

Last time i was up on tamarack this guy asked me "whats with all the vuvuzelas in the backcountry, what do they mean?" It took me a second to figure out what he was talking about before I realized he was hearing the brapping going down over on relay. Needless to say my buddy and I were dying trying not to crack up laughing.
My 2 cents is if you are so sensative that your vibe is harshed by the sound of vuvuzelas and the sweet smell of 2 stroke oil in high traffic areas such as mt rose, where you can pretty much see and hear the highway from everywhere you should probably go somewhere more remote or just go back to the noisy polluted city that you came from

[~mikey b]

Heh. I chuckled. I think I read the newly-renovated Cal Neva is reopening in the next month or two.

Mike, next time you post a land management article, do you mind resurrecting one of the separate threads we've had in the past and posting it there? A link to a separate thread serves the same purpose of fostering discussion/awareness/stirring shit. I only ask because I'd rather not feel compelled cunt up this thread with my ramblings more than I already do.

Will do, maybe. Your ramblings are fine. Too lazy to find old threads. Find 'em for me if it really matters to you.

[LightRanger]

Last time i was up on tamarack this guy asked me "whats with all the vuvuzelas in the backcountry, what do they mean?" It took me a second to figure out what he was talking about before I realized he was hearing the brapping going down over on relay. Needless to say my buddy and I were dying trying not to crack up laughing.
My 2 cents is if you are so sensative that your vibe is harshed by the sound of vuvuzelas and the sweet smell of 2 stroke oil in high traffic areas such as mt rose, where you can pretty much see and hear the highway from everywhere you should probably go somewhere more remote or just go back to the noisy polluted city that you came from

Like Berkeley, where you came from? Or Cham, where only the coolest of the cool spend their winters?

ETA: My $.02 is that if you engage in the sport that has (many would argue, disproportionate) impacts on other users, you should expect from pushback from those other users.

The vuvuzelas thing is pretty funny though. I would have been stifling laughter.

Will do, maybe. Your ramblings are fine. Too lazy to find old threads. Find 'em for me if it really matters to you.

Ok. Here...
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...mobiling-in-CA

[Bosco]

I'm headed to Kirkwood in the morning and would like opinions on the best route to take from Cameron Park (think Folsom). My first thought was to go by way of Meyer's, but was wondering if any the back road options out to 88 might be better. The roads should be fairly dry in the morning.

Thanks,

[~mikey b]

Thanks. Lazy. Recovering from surgery so I'm a bit slow.

[WestCoastPDR]

No sleds out here. Just post holers who gave up after a while and left the goods to a few people willing to put in the work

Like PD said "a good day in the neighborwood"

[WestCoastPDR]

Forgot the pic

[Skiwald]

[Huck Pitueee]

How stoked would you be if there were a vuvuvzela to help you out if you had a problem in the bc?

[Dhelihiker]

If you are BC skiing around snowmobiles or snowmobiling around BC skiers you're doing it wrong, both parties equally stupid.

[kidwoo]

I tried posting in that other thread but it stops at 2013 posts for some reason........

My $.02: I don't have a sled, but I am in that general area very often. IMO, the "noise" is faint most of the time (or at least it's never bothered me), and it's easy to get away from it. I don't really see what the fuss is about.

As for cigarette boats . . . I've heard them five miles inland in Desolation Wilderness.

Tamarack met with my approval today.

Also, I heard sleds all day. Not a value judgement, just a note.

These two statements, equally true are also an effect of what's been going on the last two winters. Right now (well, this past weekend) there are only two places you can realistically even launch a sled from on the north side without scraping pavement or rocky mud for miles. Mt rose meadows and the snowpark access by boreal. So guess where the sleds are? Mt rose is reliable coverage............for everyone regardless of what they want to do. And there are no skier restrictions up there.......only sled restrictions. But on a 'normal winter' there's a lot more sled dispersion.

I hiked that area for a probably close to decade before lightranger ever stepped foot out there. But like most people with common sense, I never expected to go to what's an essentially an urban trailhead where I know is one of the few places sleds are allowed and get a full wilderness experience 0-2 miles from a highway. Rather than try to get the rest of the world to bow down to my expectations I looked at a map and saw how easy it was to get away from them. And I still go to those places when I want to get away from them. It's not hard here. Not at all. You can stand at any high point in tahoe and see three different wilderness areas, all with a parking spot extremely close to the boundary. Not to mention all the additional non-wilderness sled closure areas.

But snowlands doesn't actually want to help human powered recreation, they just want snowmobiles banned from anywhere they can park. Sleds already are 'confined' but then snowlands focuses on those areas and tries to get them further restricted or banned. Something a little more functional would be a better parking zone at the hourglass lot, or the construction of a lot at the hairpin down the road beneath chocolate peak (can't hear sleds there). But they don't put their resources towards something like that. They know how to sue and play the victim when there is literally nowhere that skiers have been displaced in tahoe on public land. You can't say that about sleds. So that's what happens.....they sue and complain about the few areas where sleds are. That's fine I just wish they'd portray their intentions in terms of actions a little more honestly. I'm a backcountry skier/boarder to the core, that's why I moved here eons ago for the safer than average snowpack. Like has been said many times in this thread, it's not hard to get away from sleds around here. And when snowlands tries to further restrictions on sleds, that directly affects my backcountry skiing. Not as much rose area but the multiple district lawsuit filed regarding grooming in areas outside the basin. They're not a backcountry skier organization. They're a public agency suing organization.

The sled access thing only works in one direction. There's never been an area previously closed to sleds that then becomes open. It's always closures. That's an important point to understand when you expect empathy or cooperation towards the position of closing another one.

[/annual snowlands soapbox]

[~mikey b]

Agreed on all points.

Edit: ok maybe not ALL points - I'm staying out of the personal pissing match - I've got enough of my own

and the forum is facked that's why you can't see all the posts in the other thread

[LightRanger]

Meh. Deleted after kw edit and I thought better of it.

[~mikey b]

Nothing wrong with this discussion happening here. It's a current and pertinent Tahoe topic.

[Skiwald]

i never thought i would like sled skiing. Snowmobiles seemed like such an obtrusive presence in the BC and then I had my eyes opened on a trip out to the Ruby Mtns... i bought a sled the next week and never looked back. there's definitely a place for tranquility in the BC without the BRAAAP of sleds. It's seriously not hard to find tranquility in the mountains if you look in the right places. stop the bitching and start shredding. We all love being in the mts no matter what our up hill method and that's the bottom line.

[climberevan]

I agree with Kidwoo regarding the sleds near Tamarack. It's pretty much the same argument that we have about dirtbikes & mountain bikes. Trails are created by dirtbikes & then discovered by mountain bikers, and then closed to dirtbikes. It happens all the time, and never the other way around.

I don't ride snomobiles, but I do ride & race dirtbikes. My solution is to head a little further out into the woods where mountain bikes don't want to go, or to ride trails that are too technical & steep for pedaling. This works well here in NV, but if you want to ride a dirtbike anywhere near civilization, you're going to have a harder time.

The core statements, I think, are: 1) when you're less than 2 miles from a pretty major highway you really can't expect a wilderness experience; and 2) there are plenty of places where one can definitely get a wilderness experience, guaranteed, and the places where one can legally use a sled or dirtbike are ever-shrinking.

[TahoeBC]

I’m not a sled neck, have not even been on one in about 20 years. But I look at it same way as what’s been going on with Mountain biking, over half the Basin if off limits to bikes, but the Sierra Clubbers are always trying to close more trails down often by their thinly veiled attempts of creating more wilderness. I attended one of Marcus Libkin’s slide shows once, it ended up being really a pitch for snowlands and to join there club and fight. Talking with him after the show I was pretty turned off because it was the same mentality as the Sierra Club, fuck you if you don’t recreate exactly the way we like, we do not want to share our publicly funded lands with you.

You keep pushing people out there gonna push back and poaching is only going to increase and it will be in areas that are relatively sled free for the most part today.

We already enjoy access to the best area’s today without sleds, go out and enjoy a sled free experience, it’s EASY to do. If I was a sledneck and got pushed out of an area because of snowlands lobbying I would not even think twice about poaching that area.

Besides that I recently discovered there tracks make for great fat biking trails, this was from a couple weeks ago, sure a few sleds came by, I stopped to let then go by, they slowed, we all smiled and waved and enjoyed our day out in the mountains.

[Baaahb]

"one of the few places sleds are allowed" ...let's look at this in the LTBMU. There are seven highways into the basin, which provide access to winter recreation. 89 north has mixed use, both ski and sled areas. 267 (Brockway) has sled use on both sides. 431 (Rose) has both sled and ski areas. 50 (Spooner) has sled use on the south side, ski on the north. 207 (Kingsbury) has Heavenly on the south, open to sleds on the north. 89 south is open to sleds on the east, closed on the west. 50 (Echo) is arguably closed to sleds at the summit, but open lower down. "Arguably" because Eldo does not have an OSV map.

The most popular sled area, other than the concessions, is arguably on the west side, where sleds can access Barker Pass, an eighth route into the basin, accessible only by offroad vehicles.

Fact is sleds can access a lot of territory. (about 50% of the LTBMU) Unlike skiers, they are not effectively restricted to the more accessible recreation points. Not everyone is a TGR mag stud who can get from winter trailheads into Wilderness.

Snowlands does work with the sled community. Snowlands is working with sledders in the LTBMU and Lassen and is very open to meet with sled groups in other areas. The problem of higher snow levels is real, and the reason that when Snowlands worked with sled groups in the H-T, they settled on a restriction at Forestdale that kicks in only when sleds can stage out of Hope Valley.

Yes, the new restrictions will largely be a one-way street. That's the rub for high impact activities in a world of increasing congestion and finite resources.

[TahoeBC]

Recreate the way I WANT or get the FUCK out. Why close Forestdale at all? takes all but 5 minutes to drive further up the road, Jesus.

[old goat]

This fight has been going on a long time and will keep going on for as long as there is gas to put in sleds. 40 years ago back in Michigan (where farmers used to string neck high wires to discourage the sledders from trespassing) we were cross country skiing when we were confronted by some sledders who just wanted a fight with some wimpy, granola eating, hippy types. They got discouraged though--my friend was an ex-Marine Seal. A very large ex-Marine Seal. So I guess I just don't like sledders. It's personal. But the calculus seems simple. When uses conflict the use that has the least impact on other users is favored. And longstanding uses are favored over new ones. Non-mechanical recreation wins on both counts. Non-favored doesn't mean banned, but it does mean restricted.

[Baaahb]

Oops, I thought TahoeBC was interested in a serious, fair and rational discussion. Consider me schooled.

[TahoeBC]

So if it was discovered that the impacts to wildlife were just as big with hikers will snow-land advocate closing those areas to foot traffic, skis and snowshoes?

http://www.crctourism.com.au/wms/upl...ainforests.pdf

[gimpy]

I don't sled but have never had an issue with them and do feel they are getting pinched.
Marcus' crusade to ban sleds from forestdale is just fucking self centered and stupid. I am an avid non sledding bc skier but I still think snow lands is a crock of shit. Who the fuck wants to slog all the way out to forestdale divide without at least a sled tow???? You gotta give em something or they will have to,poach closed areas
Marcus needs to find somewhere else to ski has been my belief over the last 5 years

Only time I have had a problem w sleds is when they poach red lake peak/crater
Years back I was on a sled ski trip to the rubies and my radio channel was set to communicate w my sledneck buddies. So,a,week later I am on upper crater and we near some sleds at thbottom and they are talking on hat channel so they musta been buds with some or my buds
Sooooooo I proceeeed to tell them we were the forest service and we were matching them and were going to,ticket them if they proceeded any farther. We then did an east bowl lap and when we climbed back up they were gone. And loo and behold it was actuall April fools day

Yeah yeah I know federal offense impersonating blah blah blah but it was some funny shit

[the_big_lepowski]

"one of the few places sleds are allowed" ...let's look at this in the LTBMU. There are seven highways into the basin, which provide access to winter recreation. 89 north has mixed use, both ski and sled areas. 267 (Brockway) has sled use on both sides. 431 (Rose) has both sled and ski areas. 50 (Spooner) has sled use on the south side, ski on the north. 207 (Kingsbury) has Heavenly on the south, open to sleds on the north. 89 south is open to sleds on the east, closed on the west. 50 (Echo) is arguably closed to sleds at the summit, but open lower down. "Arguably" because Eldo does not have an OSV map.

The most popular sled area, other than the concessions, is arguably on the west side, where sleds can access Barker Pass, an eighth route into the basin, accessible only by offroad vehicles.

Fact is sleds can access a lot of territory. (about 50% of the LTBMU) Unlike skiers, they are not effectively restricted to the more accessible recreation points. Not everyone is a TGR mag stud who can get from winter trailheads into Wilderness.

Snowlands does work with the sled community. Snowlands is working with sledders in the LTBMU and Lassen and is very open to meet with sled groups in other areas. The problem of higher snow levels is real, and the reason that when Snowlands worked with sled groups in the H-T, they settled on a restriction at Forestdale that kicks in only when sleds can stage out of Hope Valley.

Yes, the new restrictions will largely be a one-way street. That's the rub for high impact activities in a world of increasing congestion and finite resources.

This reads: I am fat, out of shape, and too lazy to tour a long ways to the goods so sleds should be banned from my areas.

The only good thing about sled closures is that the more areas that get closed down, sledders will stop obeying the closures and be able to ride all areas again.

Thank god I will never have to leave alaska so this isn't much of an issuer for me

[LightRanger]

So if it was discovered that the impacts to wildlife were just as big with hikers will snow-land advocate closing those areas to foot traffic, skis and snowshoes?

http://www.crctourism.com.au/wms/upl...ainforests.pdf

Use a better example:
http://www.wyocoopunit.org/index.php...sheep-project/
http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/e...3fc5fa265.html
http://wyofile.com/gregory_nickerson...ressed-skiers/

And, to answer your question, yes. Assuming that's the the science shows, because that's what the law says.

Luckily for us, we don't have any bighorns in the Greater Tahoe area. Nor do we have any lynx (which would probably cut the other way).

Gimpy, the current/impending WTM process is a ton bigger than Forestdale. I, from a personal standpoint, tend to agree with you. But then there are different types of skiers--including XC skiers that like flat slogs on roads or through meadows just to enjoy the scenery. I'm not (usually) one of those, but there are plenty of them out there. And from a management standpoint, their use is just as valid as mine or yours, even though we might see it as boring as hell.