Old racing bike: update components or frame?

[dark_star]

So I have an awesome old specialized epic pro racing bike that I bought used in 2005, although the bike itself is about 20 years old or older. It is full Dura Ace w/ an old school carbon fiber frame with aluminum joints. All parts are original save for the saddle and the wheels, both of which I upgraded. Overall, the bike is in great shape!

I love this bike and it has served me well, especially considering I paid $650 for it. But the components are starting to wear (chain ring and cassette) and they need to be replaced soon. Thus, I can scour ebay and continue to maintain this dated system a few hundred dollars at a time, or I can upgrade to new dura ace for some serious coin.

Either way, my question is whether I should continue to invest in this frame, which I'm super happy with and which has no structural problems (and it's retro chic), or look to getting a new bike altogether, probably around a titanium frame. If I do the latter i probably can't afford top components. (I'm leaning towards upgrading the components right now, since the frame is light enough and I really like the ride.)

So- should I upgrade the components or the frame? Is it silly to put awesome new components on an old but otherwise great frame?

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[ArmadaBC]

It's almost always cheaper to get a new bike than new components when you consider your also getting a frame/fork and what not. The discount manufactures get from buying in bulk is almost impossible to beat.

A new Dura Ace is approx $1800, a felt Z4 will cost you about 100/200$ more and be way lighter than the older specialized with dura ace. 105/Apex/Rival are good work horse groupsets, definitely not as nice as Dura Ace but it will certainly get the job done.

Aluminum frames are fucking awesome but they do fail and generally will not last as long as say Cro-Mo but shit carbon doesn't either.

Honestly though every study ever conducted says sport riders don't get faster when they loose a couple pounds of weight on the bike, they just do slightly less work.

I'd say upgrade the groupset if you have a particular attachment to the bike, if not get a new full carbon or something and then upgrade the drive train if for some reason the lower grade groupset doesn't work for you. I haven't done the math in awhile but the weight difference between 105/Ultegra/Apex and Dura Ace is not going to make a significant difference in your speed or distance unless your racing were 15 seconds is a life time.

You should be able to get decent money for the old bike on CL or something.

[that dude who did that thing]

This totally depends on what you plan to do with the bike. Is this now a recreational rider? If so, replace what's broken and enjoy the hell out of it.

Are you training to race pro next year? Then go get something new that's going to stand up to 80 miles a day, 5 days a week.

I love building bikes, and I don't race, so if it were mine, I'd keep riding the old frame. BUt that's just how I'd maximize my fun. Your answer might be different.

[huckbucket]

^
what Armada said

Also ... did you know that frame has a lifetime warranty?

[dark_star]

Well, I'm definitely not a racer, but I'm going to ride it in some triathlons once I get over an injury. I'm currently riding 100-150 miles/week, but hope to ramp that up once I graduate and get more time. I guess I wanted dura ace not so much for the weight (although that's nice) but because 1) I've only ridden dura ace and am spoiled by its buttery smooth shifting and response, which makes rides more enjoyable, and 2) I've had this bike for almost ten years, and the whole bike is over twenty years old, yet still has the original parts- that's made to last IMO.

But your points are well taken...


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[huckbucket]

Well, I'm definitely not a racer, but I'm going to ride it in some triathlons once I get over an injury. I'm currently riding 100-150 miles/week, but hope to ramp that up once I graduate and get more time. I guess I wanted dura ace not so much for the weight (although that's nice) but because 1) I've only ridden dura ace and am spoiled by its buttery smooth shifting and response, which makes rides more enjoyable, and 2) I've had this bike for almost ten years, and the whole bike is over twenty years old, yet still has the original parts- that's made to last IMO.

But your points are well taken...


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Today's 105 is yesterday's dura ace. You're gonna like any upgrade you make. Only do it if you want to. Chainring, cassette, chain, cables, bar tape, tires, tubes are consumables on a bike.

[El Chupacabra]

I used to have a Specialized Epic road bike from around 1993 -- carbon tubes w/ aluminum lugs, aluminum (flexy) fork. Mine was all 105 components.

Those frames had a reputation for failure when the lugs came unglued from the tubes. I sold mine around 2001.

[TBS]

Dark Star - does your bike look a little like this?


Bought it new in '93 with Ultegra build. Road raced it for three years, then slowly decreased road and increased MTB until now it gets maybe 40 miles per week in the summer/fall. There's no BB creak and it's stable in curvy 60+ descents. Been thru prolly five wheelsets, three cranksets (incl the current 105 compact), two pedal sets and a rear derailleur since new.

Wheels are old, brakes suck and the right brifter is starting to get sloppy. Upgrade of any component means a new rear wheel, >8sp cogset, R derailleur and brakes, so a whole new ride will happen when my last rear wheel or brifter craps out. Till then, I can keep up on this.

[dark_star]

Dark Star - does your bike look a little like this?


Bought it new in '93 with Ultegra build. Road raced it for three years, then slowly decreased road and increased MTB until now it gets maybe 40 miles per week in the summer/fall. There's no BB creak and it's stable in curvy 60+ descents. Been thru prolly five wheelsets, three cranksets (incl the current 105 compact), two pedal sets and a rear derailleur since new.

Wheels are old, brakes suck and the right brifter is starting to get sloppy. Upgrade of any component means a new rear wheel, >8sp cogset, R derailleur and brakes, so a whole new ride will happen when my last rear wheel or brifter craps out. Till then, I can keep up on this.

Yes, it's like that, not exactly the same bike though- it's the "epic pro," not the comp, the joints are brushed aluminum, and the frame is more "carbony" with some sort of protective layer over it, like this:



I'll post photos if I get the time.

Re: longevity/frame failure, there's some interesting history here in these threads:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bik...ber-36387.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/ret...ml#post2438031

In the second link, the guy who designed the bikes is discussing the frames, etc. He claims the frame failures were only a problem in the earliest bikes, and that others have held up well. It also seems like there's a lot on the road, which is a good sign. But I have heard others talk about frame failure.

At the end of the day, I know I should get a new bike, I'm just partial to this one. Also, it doesn't look fancy, which is nice for a city bike (i live in Cambridge, MA, just outside of boston, unfortunately), as it doesn't attract attention. Plus a new frame significantly increases the cost of the project...

[TBS]

the joints are brushed aluminum, and the frame is more "carbony" with some sort of protective layer over it, like this:



I'll post photos if I get the time.

Mine has that same lattice construction. Looking back, the difference between the pro and the comp was (a) the brushed lugs, and (b) the pro was dura-ace while the comp was ultegra.

Re: longevity/frame failure, there's some interesting history here in these threads:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bik...ber-36387.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/ret...ml#post2438031

In the second link, the guy who designed the bikes is discussing the frames, etc. He claims the frame failures were only a problem in the earliest bikes, and that others have held up well. It also seems like there's a lot on the road, which is a good sign. But I have heard others talk about frame failure.

That second link brings back memories. Jim Merz and Mark DiNucci rented shop space from my dad, first as Strawberry Racing Cycles and then as Merz Cycle. Here's an old photo (c ~1973?) at their shop in NW Portland.


Despite their being "a bunch of fucking hippies" to Dad, he was really impressed with Mark's brazing/welding skills, and with everyone's ability to trackstand at stop signs. Jim and Mark had a love/hate relationship - Jim fired Mark several times, but still took him along to Specialized.

Mark is still building bikes in Central OR - see http://www.dinuccicycles.com/

[jamal]

I would pick up an ultegra or 105 group from one of those euro sites that sells them cheap. For example:

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/gsg/ro...RIBMO&tmp=_CAR
http://www.probikekit.com/cycling-gr.../10836459.html

[robrox]

Well, I'm definitely not a racer, but I'm going to ride it in some triathlons once I get over an injury. I'm currently riding 100-150 miles/week, but hope to ramp that up once I graduate and get more time. I guess I wanted dura ace not so much for the weight (although that's nice) but because 1) I've only ridden dura ace and am spoiled by its buttery smooth shifting and response, which makes rides more enjoyable, and 2) I've had this bike for almost ten years, and the whole bike is over twenty years old, yet still has the original parts- that's made to last IMO.

But your points are well taken...


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Boulder Bike and some others have NOS Dura Ace. If you can ride it, keep it and keep it working well.

Enjoy!

[teledad]

A new full carbon frame will be substantially lighter (1-2 pounds) and stiffer. Titanium a little less so but still better than what you have. That said, if you like your bike, no reason to replace it. It's probably worth test riding some modern bikes just to see what you're missing though.

If you decide to keep it - I'd consider replacing the fork, a carbon fork ride a lot nicer than those old aluminum ones (and save some weight). I'd switch to a threadless headset and stem as well. You can find threadless stems with a 25.4 clamp so you could keep your bars if you want (or upgrade to something stiffer).

Modern Dura Ace is not the same as the 7400 stuff you're riding BTW. Light and works well when new but not nearly as durable as the older stuff. Campy is better in this respect.

[Benny Profane]

^
what Armada said

Also ... did you know that frame has a lifetime warranty?

As a Serotta owner, I can tell you that is something not written in stone. Even before they vanished.

[huckbucket]

As a Serotta owner, I can tell you that is something not written in stone. Even before they vanished.

You had that experience with Specialized or just Serotta?

[forty]

another epic owner checking in


mine is a 1989 epic allez dura ace
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/...o-DJKQDSSE.jpg
picked it up in '97 and been beat on ever since, love it to death, but...

the frame is past its freshness date by quite some time, every special ed guy ive chatted with has told me to take it easy on it, and some warned me to shelf it completely, i guess the frame was meant as a 10 year lifespan, and is not warrantied at this point regardless of original ownership or not (at least i couldnt sweet talk them)
i havent put many miles on it in the last few years, last real usage was StP (200mi/2days) in 2006, and i could tell it wasnt really up for the task at that time

when clipped in im pretty sure i could rip the headtube clean off the frame with little more than a twist, maybe other frames have held up better, but i dont trust the thing beyond beer runs at this point, and am keeping an eye out for a worthy steel frame to hang the DA parts on

[ArmadaBC]

another epic owner checking in


mine is a 1989 epic allez dura ace
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/...o-DJKQDSSE.jpg
picked it up in '97 and been beat on ever since, love it to death, but...

the frame is past its freshness date by quite some time, every special ed guy ive chatted with has told me to take it easy on it, and some warned me to shelf it completely, i guess the frame was meant as a 10 year lifespan, and is not warrantied at this point regardless of original ownership or not (at least i couldnt sweet talk them)
i havent put many miles on it in the last few years, last real usage was StP (200mi/2days) in 2006, and i could tell it wasnt really up for the task at that time

when clipped in im pretty sure i could rip the headtube clean off the frame with little more than a twist, maybe other frames have held up better, but i dont trust the thing beyond beer runs at this point, and am keeping an eye out for a worthy steel frame to hang the DA parts on

Almost all of the late 80's/90's carbons were glued at the lug lines. Generally when they fail this is the culprit. When you tap on the frame it should make a musical like sound, if it thuds be very careful riding it. Obviously cracks are a big problem as well.

Carbon itself is superior to metal as it obviously doesn't do metal fatigue but the epoxy's, particularly on early gen stuff is not anywhere near today's standards. I'm not telling you what to do I'm just saying there is a big difference between older carbon bikes and the new stuff.

[dark_star]

Almost all of the late 80's/90's carbons were glued at the lug lines. Generally when they fail this is the culprit. When you tap on the frame it should make a musical like sound, if it thuds be very careful riding it. Obviously cracks are a big problem as well.

Carbon itself is superior to metal as it obviously doesn't do metal fatigue but the epoxy's, particularly on early gen stuff is not anywhere near today's standards. I'm not telling you what to do I'm just saying there is a big difference between older carbon bikes and the new stuff.

Well shit... you guys might have convinced me to hold off on any upgrades, maybe just track down some cheaper NOS parts instead as a hold-over.

Down the line, I've been eyeing something like this:
http://www.habcycles.com/road.html

[robrox]

Well, carbon-fibre, tubular wind chimes would sound a little like bamboo...

Haven't had the heart to do that to my Roberts frames yet...they died ages ago...Reynolds 531 wind chimes...sigh

[roadgap]

If it's just worn chainrings etc, well, you're gonna have to do that on any bike old or new. I ride a fair amount but I generally plan on replacing chainrings on my winter bike once every 12 months, once every 18 on the race bike.

If you're looking to 'upgrade' to newer tech, as others have said it's clearly going to be more cost effective to go to a brand new bike. You can get a lot of bike for 2k these days. I'm partial to the super six with ultegra or sram red if you're looking at bang for buck.

As far as carbon vs any other material, I'd have a really hard time recommending anything other than a new carbon frame, mainly because there's so little out there in terms of Aluminum. I can think of maybe 2 different aluminum frames I really like these days, whereas there are probably close to a hundred good, brand name carbon frames on the market at any point in time. Carbon is also repairable and doesn't suffer from metal fatigue.

Ti, meh. Personally never saw what all the fuss was about. Too hard to make a light ti frame that doesn't ride like a wet noodle.

There is just not a ton of value to be had in metal frames in 2014, high quality carbon is just way too cheap. If you've got endless bucks to spend then get whatever dream bike strikes your fancy but for me the only way I'd ever pick up a metal frame bike would be as a classy sunday coffee rider, not as my #1 ride. Or a CAAD10 but that's a unique bike.

[Hicks]

Am mostly with roadgap here, don't understand the entire debate except maybe for the safety aspect which I can't comment on. If you are happy with the frame and it still fits your purpose then just replacing usual wear parts is a no brainer here.

If not then it depends on what vintage your components are whether it makes sense to look for a frame only or go for an entire new bike, components often go along discounted with it. Crashing a titanium frame - which are hyped for their dampness or even more design - can become really costly so better stick to aluminium or carbon.

Contrary to common belief though due to hydroforming and improved alloys these days new aluminium frames have improved big time and are often a better choice than many carbon ones. At least when sticking to a similar price tag. Unless you stumble across a smoking deal be ready to spend accordingly for a carbon frame which really takes proper advantage of the material.

[Crampedon]

Before you spend a dime ride a modern bike.

I have been selling and riding bikes for over 30 year, sold plenty of those Epics, even have 2 in the rafters of the shop.

The ride quality in a 2014 compared to a 2009 or even 2010 is shockingly better, at the higher level, so you may "love" that bike, but only until you try a new one.

Go climb and descend on a recent Tarmac or Roubaix then again on yours and post your findings….

I have some personal bikes and demos for sale, PM me with size needs if you like.

[dark_star]

Thanks all- you've convinced me that I shouldn't spend any money tricking out this bike. I think my plan is put in the minimum $$$ necessary to make it ride nicely through the season (NOS cassette, chainrings from ebay most likely) then buy a new one next year. I am investing my "gear budget" in a ski kit for an october trip to South America, so the bike will have to wait. But I really appreciate the input.

[roadgap]

Consider replacing the chain too. Cassette, chainrings and chain all wear as 'one unit' so it's ideal to replace all 3 at the same time if you can, that way you'll get the most mileage out of the new parts.

[dark_star]

Ok, well I was going to try to wait to replace the parts, but it's skipping like crazy so it seems sooner will be necessary. Any chance someone more experienced that I am can help me identify the right replacement parts, or at least tell me some information about the dura-ace vintage to help me track down some NOS or just OS parts on ebay??