Crazy idea.. Beast 16 heels with shimmed Speed Radical toes?

**Lindahl** · 08-23-2014, 03:03 PM

I really wish they made a Speed Radical 14. The Beast 14 is interesting, but I can't get those cheap, so that's out. Plus this would be lighter by about 100g per foot.

Contemplating giving this a go this winter for powder. Saves 250g per foot, and you get a really simple toepiece compared to the much more complex Beast toepiece. Seems like the Beast 16 heel definitely rotates enough for a release. For my style of skiing I only need a stronger vertical release value. Lateral releases have never been a problem for me in Speed Radicals. I love the CAST system, but after finding a Beast 16 for ridiculously cheap, I'm ready to give something new a whirl.

Yeah, I'm gonna get some shithead comments about 'don't do it' and 'bad idea', but I'm curious what some of the more contemplative folks would think...

**1000-oaks** · 08-23-2014, 03:13 PM

I would think it would work fine, since it's 98% the same toe as the Beast 14. The toe rotation is just for DIN-attempt release consistency.

**DoWork** · 08-23-2014, 03:37 PM

Seems like a lot of work and question marks for no reason whatsoever IMO.

**Lindahl** · 08-23-2014, 03:43 PM

I wouldn't call 250g per foot and the simpler toepiece 'no reason'. YMMV.

**DoWork** · 08-23-2014, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Lindahl

I wouldn't call 250g per foot and the simpler toepiece 'no reason'. YMMV.

Well I sort of feel like it's just a "square one" kind of deal... Weight vs DIN just like it has always been. Picking one and rolling with it is always smarter IMO. Frankenbinding setups freak me out more than lower DINs but it could just be me I guess. If I'm paying the weight penalty of the beast heel, I want the turntable toe too for sure.

Again that's just my .02 so carry on if you really thing the 250g is holding you back that significantly.

**JTrue** · 08-23-2014, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by DoWork

Well I sort of feel like it's just a "square one" kind of deal... Weight vs DIN just like it has always been. Picking one and rolling with it is always smarter IMO. Frankenbinding setups freak me out more than lower DINs but it could just be me I guess. If I'm paying the weight penalty of the beast heel, I want the turntable toe too for sure.

Again that's just my .02 so carry on if you really thing the 250g is holding you back that significantly.

That's per foot, which is huge when putting in big miles/vert.

**cat in january** · 08-23-2014, 04:21 PM

Hoji skis the Speed which is a 10 if TGR comments are correct.

Why do you need more than 12 in the back country for release and can't you just lock out the toe if it is a no fall zone. Maybe it is the airs you land that you need the vertical release values.

Also I am confused by your post because initially you say 100g per binding and then you say 250g per binding. Are the Beast's toes really a half pound heavier than the Speeds with the shims?

Is the brake removable on the Beast? Taking that off and going with straps would probably be near the same weight savings and potentially much simpler.

As you know weight saved on the boot that you lift with each stride will have a much more noticeable impact on energy expended in climbing. I don't know what boots or liners you have, but you may look at Palau liners which are very light and keep your Beast intact. Could be a cheaper and simpler solution.

Just giving some contrasting thoughts. Have fun and let us know what works out for you.

SB · 08-23-2014, 05:07 PM

What could go wrong?

**rob stokes** · 08-23-2014, 06:31 PM

Interesting. I do agree with your Radical 14 idea, that is what I was hoping for with the 'radical 2' they just brought out.

I basically just want a speed radical with flatter ramp and stronger springs. Even a RV 12 would work, doesn't have to be 14 for me.
I guess Dynafit think their heel's are the part that can't handle the forces created by a fall with RV 14, hence why they went with the beast heel and created the Beast 14 over a Radical 14.

**Lindahl** · 08-23-2014, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by cat in january

Hoji skis the Speed which is a 10 if TGR comments are correct.

Why do you need more than 12 in the back country for release and can't you just lock out the toe if it is a no fall zone. Maybe it is the airs you land that you need the vertical release values.

Also I am confused by your post because initially you say 100g per binding and then you say 250g per binding. Are the Beast's toes really a half pound heavier than the Speeds with the shims?

Is the brake removable on the Beast? Taking that off and going with straps would probably be near the same weight savings and potentially much simpler.

As you know weight saved on the boot that you lift with each stride will have a much more noticeable impact on energy expended in climbing. I don't know what boots or liners you have, but you may look at Palau liners which are very light and keep your Beast intact. Could be a cheaper and simpler solution.

Just giving some contrasting thoughts. Have fun and let us know what works out for you.

Yeah, I need the extra vertical release value mostly for airs. Above about 20', the Speed Radical heel starts releasing on me in deep snow landings. I've also pulled out of the Speed Radical heel just by skiing around twice (submerging into deeper snow). It's mostly related to sudden slowdowns from entering into deep snow at high speeds - generates a lot of forward (upward) force. I have to run my STHs at 12 in the heel and my Dukes at 13 in the heel for the same reasons. If I could, I'd probably run it another release value or two higher, but I've found that this force is just about the maximum my calf muscles can handle. When I ran my STHs at 13, I minorly pulled my calf muscle once when my heel didn't quite release in time (it did release, but just a little late) - 12 seems to release just right for me. It took a while to dial it up that high through experience. I was at 11 for quite some time. For normal skiing with no deep snow big airs, the 10 RV of the Speed Radical is more than enough, though - 5'9, 165lbs w/o gear, 300 BSL.

100g = difference between Beast 14 toe and Speed Radical Toe + shim(?)
250g = difference between Beast 16 toe and Speed Radical Toe + shim(?)

From what I've read, the brakes aren't removable. Plus, when sending larger airs, when I might release, I like to have brakes (along with powder straps). Tomahawking with skis flying around, attached to your ankles, has caused problems in the past... haha

Yeah, I've gone as light as I can go with liners without sacrificing forward flex too much - Pro Tours. The Palau liners I've tried are pretty weak comparatively.

Thanks for the ideas though, pretty good suggestions.

**Lindahl** · 08-23-2014, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by rob stokes

Interesting. I do agree with your Radical 14 idea, that is what I was hoping for with the 'radical 2' they just brought out.

I basically just want a speed radical with flatter ramp and stronger springs. Even a RV 12 would work, doesn't have to be 14 for me.
I guess Dynafit think their heel's are the part that can't handle the forces created by a fall with RV 14, hence why they went with the beast heel and created the Beast 14 over a Radical 14.

You can get a Speed Radical to RV 12 by swapping in the vertical release springs from an FT12, and adding a few mm washer-based shim to the lateral release spring (preloading it). Getting the vertical release springs from an FT12 may be the hard part - not sure if you can get those through Salewa. Its not an orderable part. I've thought about going into their offices in Boulder and seeing if I can talk to someone about it. It would be nice to be able to consistently stomp 20-25 on my Speed Radicals.

RV 12 is not quite enough for me. Elasticity may be part of the problem, though, so perhaps a Speed Radical 14 won't help? The vertical release on RV 10 feels like DIN 8 when hucking. I ran DIN 9 for a long time and didn't really have a problem till around 25-30'. Needed DIN 12 to be able to stomp 40', which is about my limit anyway. Trying to 4-point stomp any higher where I frequent and you really start feeling it in the body (knees to face, huckneck, sprained knees/shoulders/fingers, etc.)

**DoWork** · 08-23-2014, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by JTrue

That's per foot, which is huge when putting in big miles/vert.

Oh agreed, and that's why it's such a subjective want. Do you want the weight savings and if so, how much? If safety/DIN is your #1 concern, how high is high enough? It's different for everyone.

For me it's kind of a wash in the scenario OP puts forward, since he's operating at a high enough DIN to be concerned, yet he's willing to mix and match parts to save weight which would concern me personally. The beast is heavy but more secure, the radical is light but apparently not enough binding for OP. He's def in a tough spot, but I would probably just go with the rads and dial it back a smidge if I'm going gigantic tours or something... And stick w the beasts if I'm skiing scary shit enough for that to be my biggest concern.

Just my .02. I wouldn't want to mix n match if a DIN of 12 wasn't an option though.

**Lindahl** · 08-23-2014, 08:47 PM

Yeah, I get your point. Its mostly for minigolf when I want to do lots of laps in a day. Weight plays into how many laps you can do, and how fresh you are for each line. In this kind of situation the higher release value isn't so much about safety, as it is about being able to ski a line and stomp the airs cleanly. Its really annoying when you could have nailed that line if only your binding held (or goggles stayed on your face... hah). If it was truly a major safety issue, yeah, I'd just dial it back.

**gregL** · 08-23-2014, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Lindahl

For my style of skiing I only need a stronger vertical release value. Lateral releases have never been a problem for me in Speed Radicals.

How about beefier pins in the heel that deflect less? Wider wedge to force the pins to curve more at max RV? Or aftermarket heel plates for your boot with slightly less angle where the pin slips out at release?

Shoot Bill B. at http://www.bndskigear.com/ an email . . .

**I've seen black diamonds!** · 08-23-2014, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by gregL

How about beefier pins in the heel that deflect less? Wider wedge to force the pins to curve more at max RV? Or aftermarket heel plates for your boot with slightly less angle where the pin slips out at release?

Shoot Bill B. at http://www.bndskigear.com/ an email . . .

Does Bill B. sell these things?

**Lindahl** · 08-23-2014, 10:45 PM

I'll see what he says.

Wish I could somehow get in touch with Hoji. Being the tinkerer that he is, I'd be curious what his thoughts are on vertical releases and hucking. Wish I had thought about all this back when mtnlion did that 'Ask a Hoji' series.

**Ivan Oder** · 08-23-2014, 11:19 PM

I don't get it. Why can't '10' hold you in? Do you lean too far forward on landings or something? Too much delta, boot lean maybe?

Cheaper Options:

o You could probably get an RV of 12 if you bought the spring/parts/pins that make an ST/Speed an FT heel.
o Maybe see if you can get the Beast/Radical 2.0 new shaped pins to see if they make a difference. (If they fit.)
o Try a toe plate to reduce your delta, maybe just that little bit of rise will help the pins engage better in the back.
o Is your rear boot fitting fucked? Maybe buy a new metal thingy for the heel.
o All of the above!

LC · 08-24-2014, 03:06 AM

You think too much dude. Keep it light and dial back your skiing a bit.

**Lindahl** · 08-24-2014, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by Ivan Oder

I don't get it. Why can't '10' hold you in? Do you lean too far forward on landings or something? Too much delta, boot lean maybe?

Cheaper Options:

o You could probably get an RV of 12 if you bought the spring/parts/pins that make an ST/Speed an FT heel.
o Maybe see if you can get the Beast/Radical 2.0 new shaped pins to see if they make a difference. (If they fit.)
o Try a toe plate to reduce your delta, maybe just that little bit of rise will help the pins engage better in the back.
o Is your rear boot fitting fucked? Maybe buy a new metal thingy for the heel.
o All of the above!

Nature of the beast in the 20'-40' range given our flatter landings and deeper, lighter snow. Most people I know out here that go that big run pretty high heel DINs, or don't try to 4-point the landings (backslap and bounce back up). It might be a lesser issue at Tahoe or in the PNW. Note that I've had to dial up my alpine bindings to DIN 12 too, so it's not delta or the tech fitting, and bumping it to RV 12 likely wouldn't be enough - as I said, the RV 10 seems to work as well as DIN 8 or so when hucking.

**gregL** · 08-24-2014, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

Does Bill B. sell these things?

not yet . . .

**gregL** · 08-24-2014, 11:10 AM

. . . but if there was a demand, he'd be the most likely guy to do it in the US

**glademaster** · 08-26-2014, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by LC

You think too much dude. Keep it light and dial back your skiing a bit.

FTW. It's skiing, not parkour with planks strapped to your feet.

**auvgeek** · 08-26-2014, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Lindahl

Nature of the beast in the 20'-40' range given our flatter landings and deeper, lighter snow. Most people I know out here that go that big run pretty high heel DINs, or don't try to 4-point the landings (backslap and bounce back up). It might be a lesser issue at Tahoe or in the PNW. Note that I've had to dial up my alpine bindings to DIN 12 too, so it's not delta or the tech fitting, and bumping it to RV 12 likely wouldn't be enough - as I said, the RV 10 seems to work as well as DIN 8 or so when hucking.

I dunno—I run FKS at 13 inbounds (because I've prereleased at 12) and think the Plum heels maxed out work fine. No releases so far. Dunno that I've ever dropped a true 40 footer on them, though, so maybe they wouldn't work for you. Most of the times that I've prereleased inbounds has been from going fast over variable terrain, not so much on landings, so maybe it's a location/snow type issue like you mentioned. I'm more excited about the elasticity of the Beast than the higher retention.

SB · 08-26-2014, 09:03 AM

The flip side is try the beast toes with a radical heel?

**Lindahl** · 08-26-2014, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by auvgeek

I dunno—I run FKS at 13 inbounds (because I've prereleased at 12) and think the Plum heels maxed out work fine. No releases so far. Dunno that I've ever dropped a true 40 footer on them, though, so maybe they wouldn't work for you. I'd be more excited about the elasticity of the Beast than the higher retention. Most of my prereleases are from going fast over variable terrain, not so much on landings, so maybe it's a location/snow type issue like you mentioned.

Yeah, sounds like a different kind of skiing. Once winter really sets in, I'm doing pretty much all untracked deep light powder with lots of cliffs, pillows and trees. If I was running Dynafits inbounds and skiing lots of variable snow, as you say, I don't think I'd have much of a problem with the heel and would be more interested in using the Beast toe. Its those deep snow landings off larger cliffs that are the real problem for me.