Lenght of ski vs Kickturnability (in regards to skinning)

[ClarkleberryFinn]

I have a bit of a dilemma. I'm about 5 foot 9 btw, with short inflexible legs, and being new to the game less than brilliant skinning/kickturning technique (though getting better). Live and ski in Austria.

I like skiing long skis, in the 190 sort of range, but I struggle with kickturns whilst touring on steep terrain with them. I can manage when the snow is soft by shoving the tail of one ski under the other, but this doesn't work on hard snow. I mainly tour for nice snow, but obviously it doesn't always work out that way.

I'm currently touring on 193 EHPs with TLT Speeds, but want to get a new set. I could get somethign shorter, narrower and lighter (like the Down CD107) to complement the EHPs, and be left wth the dilemma of which to take each day, or get a replacement aiming to cover all bases in one ski (my preference). I love how the EHP skis (sooooo frictionless in pow), but there were times last season I nearly shat myself trying to swing the skis over on steeper firm snow.

I think the 4FRNT Hoji would work well for this (maybe the Down CD110, but it has more sidecut than I'd like). Problem with the Hoji is I'm not sure if the 187 would be short enough to make the kick turns that much easier, and I'm not sure that the 179 would be enough ski (both for enjoying the descents, and for skin contact area on hard steep slopes going up and edge contact going down)... Given the flatter camber profile I think the 179 EHP would work pretty well, but hard to find one now.

What lenght of ski do you find manageable for steep kick turns, and how tall are you? Can you think of any skis that would be like a 183 Hoji? Price is much more important than weight! Not a twin tip, though tail rocker is nice.

Thanks!

[rod9301]

I used to tour on 195 years ago, and kick turns were not a problem, I'm 5 8

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[Hugh Conway]

you should more be asking inseam length, leg flexibility, and "free tail length" i.e. how much ski's behind the binding.

or we can have a "I'm blah and this worked awesome for me" thread of stupid. those are popular.

[GeezerSteve]

It gets worse as you age.

FWIW, Voile Charger has a relatively short free trail length, 181cm Charger is a lotta ski and they can be had for cheap.

[XXX-er]

30" inseam and I run into the tails on my 191 stoke, my 182 lotus are better for kick turn so yeah this short AZN noticed a difference, lining them up beside each other there is about 3' less tail on the 182

I found I don't really like skinning skis with tail rocker like the JJ at all


edit: opps 3 inches not feet

[postnasaldrip]

lining them up beside each other there is about 3' less tail on the 182

Rax?????

[PNWbrit]

Other than the type of tail flat Vs rockered if you're worrying about one ski being considerably better than another you're probably doing something wrong with your kick turns?

And if they were supposed to be easy they wouldn't be so difficult to master or sneak up and bite you in the pride when you're least expecting it.

[shafty85]

You could always get crazy and try stretching/increasing your flexibility. I know it takes effort and isn't as easy as just buying different skis, but I'm a wild card and like to think outside the box But, no, seriously, flexibility will help with a lot more than just kick turns, it just takes some dedication/effort. And like PNWbrit said, they aren't easy, regardless.

[Johnny Deep]

"If you can't kick turn, you're too old."

[Mofro261]

you should more be asking inseam length, leg flexibility, and "free tail length" i.e. how much ski's behind the binding.

or we can have a "I'm blah and this worked awesome for me" thread of stupid. those are popular.

This mostly. Except it's "I'm awesome and blah worked for me."

[Andeh]

I'm 5'-10", 30" inseam, moderate flexibility, and noticed my 174 K2s kick turn a lot easier than others I've tried around 180. But then again, I don't mind short skis. I think another important aspect to consider is ski weight... I kick turn way easier than my brother (6'-2", good flexibility, on a 180 splitboard) I suspect because my setup is like 1/3 lighter. I've ordered a pair of 170 Praxis Backcountry, but haven't gotten/skied them yet. I'm sure they'll make it pretty effortless, what with the lighter weight and shorter length.

[timmaio]

Practice, practice, practice.

Yes, shorter skis will make kick turns easier.
As others have noted the location of your binding mount will also make a big difference on how well the ski balances and the tip comes up. For rando race skis we mount just a bit behind the pivot point which makes kick turns very fast and easy.

[gregL]

Lots of things that make a ski good for skinning compromise downhill performance, the trick is to find a compromise that works for you in both directions. Like Hugh says, it's meaningless to ask for a length recommendation unless it's from a person with the same length legs and similar flexibility. FWIW, at 5'8" with a 29" inseam I struggle doing kickturns on steeps with my 177 Huascarans but the same terrain is no problem with 178 Manaslus - the heelpiece is 6cm closer to the tail on the Manaslu. Most of my alpine skis are in the 185-187 range but I wouldn't tour on them for this reason.

BTW, almost any ski with a rockered tail is going to compound the problem, there will be more ski behind the binding because a big chunk of it isn't touching the snow.

[ClarkleberryFinn]

Lots of good points, thanks.

For sure there's plenty of room for improvement in my technique and flexibility, but any excuse to get new toys works for me! The free tail length makes sense too; the EHPs have a fairly central mount point, which compounds the issue. Probably rules the Hoji out, as I think 179 is just too short. 182 GPO maybe...

[ClarkleberryFinn]

Other than the type of tail flat Vs rockered if you're worrying about one ski being considerably better than another you're probably doing something wrong with your kick turns?

Not so much the type of ski, just the length. No problem with the (admittedly very subtle) tail rocker on the EHPs, it's just the total amount of tail there.

[Lindahl]

I'm also a short-legged 5'10 with miserable hip and hamstring flexibility (sitting cross-legged is extremely uncomfortable and yoga is a complete joke). I suffer with kickturns as well, and also very much prefer high-170s for kickturn tours.

I've found that a super stiff ski can compensate for ski length in a lot of cases. I've been lucky with having the opportunity to ski some ultra stiff skis this last season - way stiffer than you'd find from a major company. It makes a big difference. Pick someone like Praxis or PM Gear where you can customize stiffnes.

Also, improving hip flexibility may not be your best option. I've spoken to a couple of kinematics people who deal with pro ski athletes and they didn't want to change my lack of flexibility much at all. My body has adapted/created a particularly inflexible style while being active, and they said that messing with that could definitely increase my chance of injuries, as well as reduce my performance in sports (specifically responsiveness and reaction times). I'd suggest not messing with that.

[XXX-er]

ok so the real data on kickturnability, the 191 stoke has 24" of ski from binding to tail, the 182 lotus 120 has 22.5" of ski from binding to tail and the difference is noticable for shortaznman

[Flotsam]

I'm 5'8 and prefer skis in the 190+ range as-well. My legs are short and understand your kick-turn trouble. While technique changes and a little stretching can help this issue, a shorter ski makes things more efficient. I still use my 196's but went with a skinnier less rockered mid 180 for steeper more mountaineering/ice oriented missions. The kick-turns are easier and more efficient. The reduced rocker (read none) compared to my daily drivers closes the running length gap allowing them to still rally. Don't have to worry about tip dive in hardpack.

[riff]

Here's two things that have helped clean up my kick turns that are relatively independent of ski length:

When kick turning with flat or mellow rocker tails, set the downhill ski well, swing the uphill ski around and then drive the tail into the snow underneath the downhill ski, facing up the next batch up skin track. This is instead of simply reaching way out with that leg and being really splayed open while facing uphill. Maybe hard to picture, but what you end up with is a much less spread out stance and a more tidy feeling body position. if it works as it should, you end up with your heels as close together as you like, rather than cranked way out to clear the ski tails. Twin tips won't do this, cleary. And bulletproof old skinners won't work either.

On truly steep slopes, try a downhill kick turn. Rather than trying to clear the slope on the uphill side, stomp out a nice deck at the kick turn, and turn outward and downhill. Lots of rooms to bring skis around and you won't hang up in the hilllside. Some folks think this great, others can't get comfortable. You be the judge.

Also, for my .02, I'm 5'10" and rarely do any real touring on stuff longer than 185.

[GeezerSteve]

WTF is the deal with short guys touring on 190+ skis? FTR, I whacked the tails of my 186 V8s, rendering them considerable shorter than my 181 Chargers.

[XXX-er]

I wouldn't be using skis in the 190 range normaly but the 191 stoke is what my buddy was selling for a very good deal, they are pretty soft/manageable to ski but that doesn't make them short in a kick turn

[gregL]

I'm limber enough to kickturn a 190, but transferring my weight to the uphill ski with legs spread that far apart is really difficult - it requires an uphill leap, which doesn't work out so well if it's steep and/or the grip isn't great. The Hoji is a fine ski, but skis short compared to other skis of the same length due to the rocker profile; i'd say look for something with some camber and little to no tail rocker and drop down to ~180cm.

[Hugh Conway]

WTF is the deal with short guys touring on 190+ skis?

ego 345678

[XXX-er]

small dick

[ClarkleberryFinn]

small dick

Pretty much, but at least this way the laydeez will never guess (until too late...)