magnetic valving. how do they work?

[frorider]

SRAM had a reasonably light and convenient 20 mm maxle years ago and wouldn't license it (or fox was too proud to cough up, depending on who you ask). Marzocchi flailed around and insisted on only putting 20mm on burly FR forks. So Fox and Shimano decided to establish the 15 mm std. I have seen zero good engr arguments supporting the need for 15 mm. But the typical Lycra XC demographic was not comfortable with the idea of 20 even though net stiffness:weight ratio is better than 15mm. Marketing is about perception. Life goes on.

[Spats]

SRAM had a reasonably light and convenient 20 mm maxle years ago and wouldn't license it (or fox was too proud to cough up, depending on who you ask). Marzocchi flailed around and insisted on only putting 20mm on burly FR forks. So Fox and Shimano decided to establish the 15 mm std. I have seen zero good engr arguments supporting the need for 15 mm. But the typical Lycra XC demographic was not comfortable with the idea of 20 even though net stiffness:weight ratio is better than 15mm. Marketing is about perception. Life goes on.

Exactly. 15mm is inferior in all ways and noticeably less stiff than 20mm. The only reason it exists is because of idiots: Shimano/Fox with "not invented here", and consumers with "that's a FR standard so it must be heavy".

Hell, Maverick put 24mm (or was it 26mm?) on a single-crown XC fork for years (not to mention Leftys) and people bought it. Just goes to show that marketing trumps engineering.

[iscariot]

But the typical Lycra XC demographic was not comfortable with the idea of 20 even though net stiffness:weight ratio is better than 15mm. Marketing is about perception. Life goes on.

Exactly. 15mm is inferior in all ways and noticeably less stiff than 20mm. The only reason it exists is because of idiots: Shimano/Fox with "not invented here", and consumers with "that's a FR standard so it must be heavy".

Hell, Maverick put 24mm (or was it 26mm?) on a single-crown XC fork for years (not to mention Leftys) and people bought it. Just goes to show that marketing trumps engineering.

All of this sounds a lot like 650b.

[grinch]

Sooo many ways to reinvent the wheel. Then there's giant with the kooky head tube size. Trying to challenge cdale for the most proprietary useless shit title

[BushwackerinPA]

Giant is a kooky steerer tube size. The head tube is exactly the same as any other tapered head tube out there and can easily fit standard 1 1/8 to 1 1/2 tapered fork. still its lame, I wish Giant would stop doing it makes swapping stuff harder and I am pretty sure I can not feel any difference.

[Finstah]

Sooo many ways to reinvent the wheel. Then there's giant with the kooky head tube size. Trying to challenge cdale for the most proprietary useless shit title

Yeah! I'm sick of Cannondale too, with all their useless industry innovations like 1.5" headtubes, BB30, and the use of aluminum tubing in cycling applications. None of those things will ever catch on with other companies. If they would just stop being an engineering based bike company and focus more on marketing their "brand" on Pinkbike and in the magazines, then they'd be the type of image based company I could really get behind!

[grinch]

Ya forgot about that stuff. U could ad pull shocks and single leg forks on your list of things everyone wants. That shits selling like hot cakes. They really know what works. They should make a dh bike and fork. Fuck it , they should go all the way and make a motocross bike. Of course with their own hydraulic brakes and shocks. Real hydraulic as in water instead of oil. It's evolution . Dot to mineral oil to cdale water

[Finstah]

Sounds like you've got it all figured out...

Best to stick with Transition and Bluehouse, or really any company that doesn't bring anything new to the table and simply says "me too."

[Lindahl]

Don't really have a problem with individual company innovation, but when the entire industry embraces a shitty technology like 15mm or PF BBs, it pisses me off. Some of the blame lies on the market though - dumbass customers. The XC weight weenie invasion of the enduro race scene is a good chunk of that, some part in thanks to super pedally courses that really are more XC than DH. I'm all for reducing weight when it makes sense, but PF and 15mm?

[grinch]

Still figuring. Didn't mean to piss on your bike or sales or whatever. I've liked more than a few of their bikes. Had a great ride on a carbon moto when it came out. Single pivot bike (prophet?) was a good bike. Durable, light and a low slack setting before a lot of people were doing it. Those had conventional shock and forks. Although my friends carbon Jekyll felt good in my short try of it. I would size up on it . It was oversprung for me and he didn't want to fiddle with the proprietary shock balancing the negative/positive air balance. It still felt good. Owned a 82? Or 83? Sm900? Can't remember , I rawed it from originally forest green. Yes one of the first alu and sloping top tube. Full xc pro including xc pro riser bar and short stem. I just think a lot , not all, of their proprietary stuff turns people away. No recent experience with that fork bit it limits how short a stem u can use and the hubs are narrower flange and I've seen a number of taxied wheels from them. Once again , cool technology but just missing something. Could use that tech for a trad inverted fork maybe. With a 20mm axle of course

[Finstah]

Still figuring. Didn't mean to piss on your bike or sales or whatever. I've liked more than a few of their bikes. Had a great ride on a carbon moto when it came out. Single pivot bike (prophet?) was a good bike. Durable, light and a low slack setting before a lot of people were doing it. Those had conventional shock and forks. Although my friends carbon Jekyll felt good in my short try of it. I would size up on it . It was oversprung for me and he didn't want to fiddle with the proprietary shock balancing the negative/positive air balance. It still felt good. Owned a 82? Or 83? Sm900? Can't remember , I rawed it from originally forest green. Yes one of the first alu and sloping top tube. Full xc pro including xc pro riser bar and short stem. I just think a lot , not all, of their proprietary stuff turns people away. No recent experience with that fork bit it limits how short a stem u can use and the hubs are narrower flange and I've seen a number of taxied wheels from them. Once again , cool technology but just missing something. Could use that tech for a trad inverted fork maybe. With a 20mm axle of course

A lot of their proprietary stuff definitely turns people away and they know it. But, if they think something will ride better, or be lighter and stiffer, they put their money where their mouth is and build it regardless of market perception, and I think that is commendable.

p.s. They do have wider hub flange dimensions now, and while I know nothing about motorcycles I am under the impression that some of the stuff they brought to the table 20 years ago (before moto put them into bankruptcy) is now commonplace in that industry too. The general consensus of that venture is that had they just spec'd a Suzuki or Kawasaki or whatever engine, rather than insisting on building their own, it would not have been a failing venture. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20...

[grinch]

yes they've had good ideas. a lot of good ideas but like crank bros, they just haven't tied them together in a bombproof finished package without some glaring flaw. props to them if they want to try. I just don't want to be their guinea pig. its a tough market and dollars are even tougher to come by. good bikes , just there is quite a few that are better and easier to fix and or adjust and/or keep going in future yrs. who hasn't seen numerous people pissed off when their proprietary shock shit the bed and they just want to ride

[toast2266]

Thinking outside the box can be great and all, but sometimes the box was developed via a slow evolution of determining what works best. C-Dale waffles between thinking outside of the box for the sake of actual improvement, and thinking outside of the box for the sake of being different.

[grinch]

^^^that too. pardon my ramblin

[Finstah]

Outside the box thinking for sure. And yeah, some of it doesn't take off.

Like in 2005 when they introduced a 140mm travel trail bike with a 65.5* head tube and a 13.5" BB. The industry consensus at the time was there was no way a bike that low and slack would ever work on anything but gravity trails...

That Crank Bros analogy is a low blow

[grinch]

haaa sorry mang. totally uncalled for. I did like that back then. I thought they fucked up and made something awesome. my buddies bike. sadly he rode it in the steep setting because he said he was banging his pedals. crazy kids

[Lindahl]

outside of the box for the sake of being different.

Just curious, no snark... like what?

[toast2266]

Just curious, no snark... like what?

A lot of the Coda stuff. Some of it was pretty good, but some of it was fairly horrible when far better options existed. Coda disc brakes are the example that comes to mind. Many of their "different for the sake of..." stuff had less to do with the initial idea and more to do with the fact that they stuck with it for so long, even after better options became readily available (headshocks being one example of this - headshocks in the early 90's = one of the best options, headshocks in the mid to late 2000's = not so much).

I can't think of anything that Cannondale has ever done where someone couldn't make an argument that Cannondale was "thinking outside of the box" or "pushing development of new technologies." But just because that was the impetus for it doesn't mean that they weren't also doing it so that they stood out from the crowd.

Cue someone saying that headshocks are the best thing ever in 3...2...1...

[Spats]

All of this sounds a lot like 650b.

650b = two things.

1. It fit in many Fox 26" forks of the time so the suspension was already good

2. The bicycle industry had to come up with a reason why they ignored and shat on 29ers for 10+ years that wouldn't make them look like idiots when they finally turned around and adopted it. "See? Here's a new useless in-between wheel size for all the people who believed our bullshit that 29ers sucked and would never catch on...we can pretend they're good for different things or that 29 was too big"

[iscariot]

650b = two things.

1. It fit in many Fox 26" forks of the time so the suspension was already good

2. The bicycle industry had to come up with a reason why they ignored and shat on 29ers for 10+ years that wouldn't make them look like idiots when they finally turned around and adopted it. "See? Here's a new useless in-between wheel size for all the people who believed our bullshit that 29ers sucked and would never catch on...we can pretend they're good for different things or that 29 was too big"

Is 650b paleo?

[stuckathuntermtn]

Only if you wear neon framed clear goggles.