What's missing from my touring quiver?

[lepistoir]

Wondering what the collective suggests for that central pillar of my quiver: the do-it-all, day-in/day-out touring ski for someone with a touring bias. I have a pass, but more than 2 hours at the resort usually bores me. I prefer the solitude, the exercise, the adventure, and the snow out of bounds. I have some Lhasa Pow 191s right now with Dynafit Rad FT and just upgraded from Quadrants to Vulcans. With the LPs going on their 5th or 6th season (25-50 days per season), they are definitely feeling soft in front of the binding and the Vulcans can now completely overpower them, which doesn't work that well for a ski designed to be skied with shin pressure. I also wonder, based on my Lotus 138s, if I couldn't find something with more of that funshape: with the right amount of rocker, camber, taper and sidecut to handle steeps, ice, chunder and high H2O content or wind-densified while still doing great in pow. Here is my quiver and some skis I've already ruled out:

Current skis:
Lotus 138 191 (bamboo/white) for the super deep days when all I want to do is farm turns
LP 191 (green bomber topsheet, red base w/ white stripe) for most any day I want to go touring
Dynafit Stoke 191 for longer pow missions or something steeper and more techy than what I would take the LPs out on
K2 Sideshow 181 for corn and volcanoes
G3 Zenoxide 88 for corn, volcanoes and long spring missions. Would probably replace sideshows completely if K2s didn't make me ski like a dookey protege (that means skiing like a champ for those of you who don't know dookey)
ALL WITH TECH BINDINGS
Volkl Bridge 187 (white construction zone graphy) with alpines for inbounds. Yes, I have a pass, but get bored inbounds after two hours. 4:1 bc to resort days

Ruled out:
Dynafit Denali -a little too narrow for west coast and maybe not stout enough for me (6'2" 200lbs,)
Volkl Nanuq/Drifter/V-werks katana etc. Not sure I like the ELP/full rocker sidecut for steep and firm
Carbon Megawatt -too much of a straight and forward ski although I like the liveliness

Possibilities:
Lhasa Pow Carbon (might opt for 186 this time)
Wailer 112 pure RP/C
Huascaran
G3 Empire 115 (heavy?)
G3 Carbon Synapse 109

Anyone want to put their immense ski knowledge to use?

[whatsupdoc]

The empire 115 and synapse 109 are full rocker if I'm not mistaken, so that rules them out if that's not your thing.

Maybe consider the Voile Charger. It's a surprisingly capable touring ski. Can be had for cheap. Some Praxis options would go good as well. With the ultralight core they're damn light. GPO in an ultralight layup?

[coldandwet]

Praxis Freeride in a lighter layup?

The ON3P Steeple 112 looks interesting, though the shape might not be very hard-snow friendly. Bit difficult for me to demo it, though you might not have that problem.

[skime]

The new second gen Whitedot Directors migth be whats missing with 107 mm. In Carbonlite they are ligth just not Dynfit ligth. This means (to me at least) better on snow performance. Even the new second gen WD Ragnaroks at 118 mm may suit a chargier style. The regular version is crazy ligth, but Carbonlite is a better option for those long steep climbs. Both skis should be performe ok for those icy patches.

[auvgeek]

That's quite slot to fill. "Steeps, ice, chunder and high H2O content or wind-densified while still doing great in pow" is no mean feat. Although I love them in pow, in my experience, you want to stay away from pintail designs on hard steeps because the tip engages more than the tail and can spin you around. So I'd avoid the Billy Goat/Steeple, L120, Lhasa, etc.

The PM Gear 187 Bro Fat comes to mind for sure, as well as the Kusala which I thought skied steeps very well despite being full rocker. From Praxis, the RX at 9# std layup (may want to confirm with Keith; seems a little light to me??) is a steal at under $600. I thought the GPO was pretty meh, but there are tons of people who love it. You can obviously go narrower with the Backcountry or Freeride, depending on how much hard snow performance you want. There's also one pair of new old stock 186 ON3P Vicik Tours left on their site that might be worth considering.

The RPC was too...something...for my liking. I love stiff skis, but maybe it was too stiff for the weight or something. It just never clicked with me.

[GeezerSteve]

I prefer the solitude, the exercise, the adventure. . . .

Wait. You prefer solitude, exercise and adventure, have five or six touring skis and none of them are fat fishscales? It's quite obvious what's missing from your touring quiver: Vector BC or Charger BC. For max billygoating potential, put TTS bindings on them. TTS will work fine with your Vulcans, allows you to scoot around on fishscales while in downhill mode.

. . . to handle steeps, ice, chunder and high H2O content or wind-densified while still doing great in pow.

Asking for alot. No lightweight touring skis gonna do great in chunder cuz there's no substitute for ballast. If you are encountering lots of chunder while touring, maybe you should consider another route? Setting aside that issue, IME the Voile Charger skis most mid-winter touring conditions quite well.

[Quadzilla]

Yeah, kinda going thru the same thoughts about replacing my soft snow/powder/Sierra crust ski for next season. Same size/location as you but way less choices in my BC quiver. Right now 184 Nanuq's/dynafit as Spring firmer setup and 185 BD Justice/Dynafits. Boots are TLT6's. OK with the Volkls for next year but want to turn the BD's into rock skis and get a replacement for those. I guess the difference for me is that my boots are not that burly and don't think they will work good with a heavier more powerful ski. Was thinking Carbon Megawatt but don't like the size choices. Now maybe considering a 114 Coomback if the weight is not much over 8.5# for a 181. Definitely want a 115 or so underfoot and 180-185 length.

[SiSt]

Moderation?

[coldandwet]

The new second gen Whitedot Directors migth be whats missing with 107 mm... The regular version is crazy ligth, but Carbonlite is a better option for those long steep climbs.

Best of all, all their new touring friendly lightweight range come in black! Excellent choice of colourscheme, guys.

[SB]

You need sum of those ski goats.

Sent from my Huawei-U8665 using TGR Forums

[rod9301]

If money is no object the carbon katana is a great ski.
Very slight rocker, great on ice and steeps, can slide out around or carve, easy jump turns for narrow steep couloirs, and yet if you have a late start, great in slushy snow.
.once you try them, you will never use your other skis.

Now if I just make my wife understand why I NEED them.


Sent from my SCH-I500 using TGR Forums

[XXX-er]

You need a pair of RAX to complete the quiver

[Hugh Conway]

A willingness to ski and not be a consumer whore.

[lepistoir]

The empire 115 and synapse 109 are full rocker if I'm not mistaken, so that rules them out if that's not your thing.

Maybe consider the Voile Charger. It's a surprisingly capable touring ski. Can be had for cheap. Some Praxis options would go good as well. With the ultralight core they're damn light. GPO in an ultralight layup?

Thanks all for the bountiful replies!

I knew that about the Empire, but not the Synapse (rocker in 109 with mustache shape in 102 & 93). Too bad, since the Synapse sounds awesome otherwise. Empire definitely too heavy and I just don't know about that full rocker in steep coolers with 6" of fresh over hard.
My friend has the Charger and says they make him ski faster than he ever has. Sounds like enough of a ripper with light enough weight which leaves the question whether playful enough...

Praxis again? Good ideas actually. I think I end up going in long circles that come back to either PM Gear or Praxis. Guess Tahoe is a great place for designing and testing skis that do a lot. I think something in between the Backcountry (capable, light, boring?) and the Woo (too much soft-snow bias for complete versatility) would be nice.

[lepistoir]

Praxis Freeride in a lighter layup?

The ON3P Steeple 112 looks interesting, though the shape might not be very hard-snow friendly. Bit difficult for me to demo it, though you might not have that problem.

good idea.
To me, Praxis freeride = Praxis backcountry + better hardsnow tail and flex. Also has more camber. I'm thinking a mm or two of camber is sufficient for a mostly-soft snow touring ski.

The steeple has the shape/camber/rocker nailed in every way. The missing element is the weight. 189 is 2300g per ski

To quote a nearby thread:

For a "mostly touring quiver of one ski" I would want:

a 28ish meter sidecut

low rise medium length rocker in the tip, super low rise and short length (almost negligible) rocker in the tail

2 or 3 mm of camber in the middle of the ski

I would also want it to have a low rate of change (derivative) of both the camber line and sidecut line. Salomon's R2 122 is an example of this; its camber and sidecut lines don't change abruptly over a short distance. They change more gradually over a longer portion of the ski. Abrupt changes in the rocker/camber or sidecut/taper lines make smaller portions of the ski more reactive relative to other portions of the ski.

I think it's dims would be something like 135-110-125.

[lepistoir]

The new second gen Whitedot Directors migth be whats missing with 107 mm. In Carbonlite they are ligth just not Dynfit ligth. This means (to me at least) better on snow performance. Even the new second gen WD Ragnaroks at 118 mm may suit a chargier style. The regular version is crazy ligth, but Carbonlite is a better option for those long steep climbs. Both skis should be performe ok for those icy patches.

Again, to quote a neighboring thread:

+1. You've just described my Whitedot Ranger CarbonLites.

Seems like Whitedot is the shiz, but is there something equivalent/similar in the US for less than $1400?

[lepistoir]

That's quite slot to fill. "Steeps, ice, chunder and high H2O content or wind-densified while still doing great in pow" is no mean feat.

I guess you might think so, but I just think it's the lot of the ski in the middle of the quiver since the other skis are specialists, given over completely to the optimal design elements for their pure niches: powder or corn. The middle-of-the-quiver ski has to put up with days that are powder on north and corn on south, with heat-crusted pow on east, going from steep, sweet chute into open bowl with lower-angle turns in trees -all many hours of skinning from the trailhead.

Although I love them in pow, in my experience, you want to stay away from pintail designs on hard steeps because the tip engages more than the tail and can spin you around. So I'd avoid the Billy Goat/Steeple, L120, Lhasa, etc.

Yeah, I am of the same mind. Have found my ski style maladapted for Lhasa Pows in steep jump turns. I would prefer the slarvy/smeary/releasable tail came from shape AND rocker in combination.

The PM Gear 187 Bro Fat comes to mind for sure, as well as the Kusala which I thought skied steeps very well despite being full rocker. From Praxis, the RX at 9# std layup (may want to confirm with Keith; seems a little light to me??) is a steal at under $600. I thought the GPO was pretty meh, but there are tons of people who love it. You can obviously go narrower with the Backcountry or Freeride, depending on how much hard snow performance you want. There's also one pair of new old stock 186 ON3P Vicik Tours left on their site that might be worth considering.

Amen. I've definitely thought about Bro Fats. Keep coming to mind for the steep/firm performance and only leave me wondering if they have the slarvy/fun quotient I seek.

The RPC was too...something...for my liking. I love stiff skis, but maybe it was too stiff for the weight or something. It just never clicked with me.

Hmmm, I thoroughly enjoyed the W112RP. Definitely fun and bouncy. Easy to release and smarve. Seemed a little soft at the tip for my liking so maybe the RPC is the ticket for me. Anyone know the difference between an RPC and Bro Fats?

[lepistoir]

Wait. You prefer solitude, exercise and adventure, have five or six touring skis and none of them are fat fishscales? It's quite obvious what's missing from your touring quiver: Vector BC or Charger BC. For max billygoating potential, put TTS bindings on them. TTS will work fine with your Vulcans, allows you to scoot around on fishscales while in downhill mode.

Always asking myself when I'll get around to this. A pair of Scarpa Defenders and the TTS binding on Charger BC... sounds heavenly. I've floated the idea to some and heard fishscales carry too many compromises, but I'm not sure kick wax can really get you places you want to put turns. Skins or scales? That is the question. At the moment, I would like to have three pairs of skis for touring: (a) pow-pow, (b) corn/volcano, (c) everything in between and then maybe after that something for the (d) category: endless treks with some turns mixed in wherever that long-ranging tour takes one.

Asking for alot. No lightweight touring skis gonna do great in chunder cuz there's no substitute for ballast. If you are encountering lots of chunder while touring, maybe you should consider another route? Setting aside that issue, IME the Voile Charger skis most mid-winter touring conditions quite well.

I'm not in the habit of skiing chunder in the BC, but some must usually be dealt with on each tour and represents here simply a design parameter for a versatile ski. The chunks and trenches of avy debris, ski tracks, old-snow slopes that have shed their recent coats... If I'm guaranteed not to encounter any of these conditions, then I'll take one of the specialist skis for pure pow or pure corn. Hopefully a slower transition from tip to fore contact point to sidecut and thereaft can be achieved along with decent stiff-/livelyness and reduced weight for touring. Why does this make me think of the Huascaran?

[lepistoir]

Yeah, kinda going thru the same thoughts about replacing my soft snow/powder/Sierra crust ski for next season. Same size/location as you but way less choices in my BC quiver. Right now 184 Nanuq's/dynafit as Spring firmer setup and 185 BD Justice/Dynafits. Boots are TLT6's. OK with the Volkls for next year but want to turn the BD's into rock skis and get a replacement for those. I guess the difference for me is that my boots are not that burly and don't think they will work good with a heavier more powerful ski. Was thinking Carbon Megawatt but don't like the size choices. Now maybe considering a 114 Coomback if the weight is not much over 8.5# for a 181. Definitely want a 115 or so underfoot and 180-185 length.

Let's start a touring ski demo co-op this winter. With El Nino coming, we might need skis that can handle warm, thick snow... I have 28.5 Vulcans so hopefully you can fit the bindings. i'm not surprised that the Justices are too planky for TLT6s. I don't think Bode's race boots could bring most BD skis to life. Unless you want to buy my Quadrants, you might have to admit that your ski choice is limited by the softer boots. You are probably the guy that Voile Charger or V6 is made for.

Coomback 114. Hmmm.

[lepistoir]

If money is no object the carbon katana is a great ski.
Very slight rocker, great on ice and steeps, can slide out around or carve, easy jump turns for narrow steep couloirs, and yet if you have a late start, great in slushy snow.
.once you try them, you will never use your other skis.

Now if I just make my wife understand why I NEED them.


Sent from my SCH-I500 using TGR Forums

LUST FOR THESE!
Also, BMT 109...

[lepistoir]

You need a pair of RAX to complete the quiver

I am ski-curious...

[lepistoir]

Hugh Conway
по́шлость
THIS MESSAGE IS HIDDEN BECAUSE HUGH CONWAY IS ON YOUR IGNORE LIST.

[coldandwet]

The steeple has the shape/camber/rocker nailed in every way. The missing element is the weight. 189 is 2300g per ski

That sounds like the pre-production weight, based on a prototype pressing in their normal layup (going by their 2015 ski thread here). I'd expect it to be closer to 2.1kg in the released version, though that's still not exactly lightweight. You could always drop them a mail and ask?

Seems like Whitedot is the shiz, but is there something equivalent/similar in the US for less than $1400?

Ranger Carbonlight 186 seems to weigh about 1.8-1.9kg (going by review comments; whitedot don't say). 140cm edge, 28m radius.
Praxis Freeride 184 in ultralight layup weighs about 1.8-1.85kg. Slightly shorter turn radius, slightly longer effective edge, pretty similar dimensions etc. You can get it with a topsheet that isn't black, and a softer flex that'll make it even lighter. Also, $750 right now, even without any discount codes.

[the_doc]

Hi guys, thanks for the Ranger love. The new website isn't live yet but you can check out all out specs inc. weight's for the CL3 series here.

http://issuu.com/whitedotskis/docs/w..._2014-15-issuu

[SB]

You need moar funny hats to wear with yor skis.

When you have atleast one hat to use wit each of said skis you may thonk about nu skis.

Sent from my Huawei-U8665 using TGR Forums