Paulina Peak Fatality

[adrenalated]

I take it back. Silverton Avalanche School offers a "Snowmobile Level 1." Props to them.

[BFD]

condolences to the family and friends of the deceased. Everyone is someone's child.
Alaska avalanche school offers classes for snow machines. This is 2014 there is no shortage of information out there on avalanche safety. I have a hard time with Tapps line about needing to educate people. people buy these machines to ride in avalanche terrain they know what they are getting into. If snowmachineers are serious about about avi safety they need to have classes led by snowmachineers. I am not an avalanche instructor but I do know I have no interest in spending time in the mountains with people who's only interest in being there is the machine. I think and hope many avalanche instructors feel the same.

[LightRanger]

I take it back. Silverton Avalanche School offers a "Snowmobile Level 1." Props to them.

I've seen a handful of others too, but your point is still a good one: there are very few.

[snapt]

For those who have lost friends to the mountains, you can take great solace in knowing that they did in fact die doing what they loved. I have said a million times, I would rather go in the alpine than get hit by a bus or have a cheeseburger heart attack.

I used to think that too, then I got caught in a slide. I spent 30 seconds up to my neck, choking on snow and rapidly approaching trees/cliffs. In the those 30 seconds never once did I think this is a great way to go. It was nothing but goddamn it what a fucking dumbass am I. My family, lady, and friends are going to be pissed. There's a lot of shit I've yet to do and I cut it short with a dumb decision. The dieing doing what you love is a crock of shit perpetuated by those who've never looked it in the face IMHO.

RIP to the deceased.

[BFD]

i agree with snapt. been there a few times. my thoughts every time was how stupid I was. Maybe I am not as good at this as I think. If you think dying because you made a stupid mistake pursuing something you are trying to be good at than great. To me it is failure.

[snapt]

I was fully buried and rescued, and I respectfully disagree.

besides, everyone has their number called one day... and If I could chose the mountains over being hit buy a bus, I would chose the mountains every time. There is big difference between being scared and being near death.... not that I am trying to start a fight, I respect your opinion and agree that there is nothing glamorous about death, and those who expose them selves to risky situations often fail to consider the impact it will have on their loved ones.

Agree to disagree man. It's a shitty subject all the way around, everyone's different. Glad you made out on this side. Cheers

[snoqpass]

The backcountry ski/guiding/education industry doesn't exactly make it easy for slednecks to get educated. Pretty much every avy class is marketed only towards BC skiers/snowboarders, and the content is definitely geared that way, using the slopes that skiers like to ride and access as examples. A method of up uphill/downhill human-powered transit (ie skis or snowboard) is almost always a requirement of taking a Level 1 or Level 2 class. At a minimum, it's a snowshoes. I don't think I've ever seen a provider even attempt to offer a snowmobile-based avy course.

The help of the sled dealers is also needed to help educate. When someone walks into a backcountry ski shop and asks "what do I need to get started?" the first part of the answer is usually "shovel, beacon, probe, and avalanche education." We can do better on encouraging that last item, but I digress. I don't think the same can be said of most snowmobile dealers, though many in Colorado now sell the basics as well as things like airbag packs.

I've overall been impressed by the number of slednecks I see in CO that have basic avy gear or airbag packs, but as North said, there's still plenty out there with nothing.

Looking at the numbers skiers and snowboarders aren't doing that great

[totaliboard]

Education is more available than people think. There are multiple avy courses for sledders in SW montana. GNFAC knows exactly what theyre doing and make it virtually impossible for anyone to venture into the backcountry uneducated. Yet it happens all the time.

To whoever said its a failure to die in an avalanche.. clearly youve never been in an avalanche. stick to the groomers where you can die with dignity..

[glademaster]

To whoever said its a failure to die in an avalanche.. clearly youve never been in an avalanche. stick to the groomers where you can die with dignity..

Just a friendly FYI, but check your facts before you spew.

[totaliboard]

it was mostly sarcastic.. but id be interested in seeing these statistics youre alluding to.

[neck beard]

Sledder education.

I know Canada is apparently a world away to most Americans, but this is worth looking at. Take 30 minutes to watch it. It is the outreach component of a series of sledder avalanche safety videos called Throttle Decisions which roughly follows the AST 1 curriculum. I've seen the full set of videos and the production value, along with the message and the way the words are spoken is better than anything I've seen from skiers, snowboarders or any other mountain travellers. Despite some fine earlier productions the sled community behind this production have set a new very high standard. As a skier I look up to what they produced. It is truly a credit to them. Leading by example etc etc. I wish I had ski partners like the sledders in the series.

If you are involved with sledders then I recommend buying the full series on DVD, even if the Canadian AST courses are a little different to the American recreational avalanche education courses.

[powdork]

The dieing doing what you love is a crock of shit perpetuated by those who've never looked it in the face IMHO.

Nobody wants to die. That's not the point. But when you were in it neck deep were you thinking , "Jeez I wish I spent more time at work"?
Live doing what you love, and if it's dangerous do what you can to mitigate those risks. Some people like to play. Others like to sit on the sidelines. Most here are the former not the latter.
I absolutely don't want to die. But death comes in many colors and without warning so I plan to get the most out of my short time on this rock, whether that's playing in the mountains, spending time with those I love, or whatever tickles my fancy in whatever stage of life I'm in.

[splitinbend]

When you gamble, in the end the house always wins.

[totaliboard]

aint that the truth

[kidwoo]

I don't think I've ever seen a provider even attempt to offer a snowmobile-based avy course.


I've overall been impressed by the number of slednecks I see in CO that have basic avy gear or airbag packs, but as North said, there's still plenty out there with nothing.

The humbolt-toiyabe forest district in NV/CA has held two snowmobile specific avalanche education clinics this year (I think they had 3 planned). The Tahoe national forest who runs the forecasting center for Tahoe has held at least one. So it's starting..... At least here.


You gotta remember too that the out of area rider contingent for skiers has a place to go......ski areas, that get patrolled. Most of the out of area sledders in the rockies are from the Midwest. And it's not like you drive into CO/UT/MT/WY/ID and go buy a sled area ticket that covers avalanche patrol services.

This guy in this event lived right there though, so that doesn't even apply. What does apply is that the eastern OR cascades have no forecasting center. It's crazy to me that tap and friends have to work so hard to get it done.

[goldenboy]

The thing with avy instructors is that most of them come from a guide background- rock climbing, ice climbing, mountain travel, wilderness first aid, etc - and avy courses. It can be a full-time job.

A snowmobile avy instructor? What are they likely to do in the summer? ATV guiding? Point being, it will be hard to find dedicated avy instructors that come from a snowmobile background. And even though places like here (Crested Butte) have avy instructors that ride sleds, most of them only do it for transportation, not fun, so a snowmobiler taking a course still won't have a peer teaching it.

In any case, most of the snowmobilers here at least seem prepared, gear wise.

[neck beard]

Sounds like a free market opportunity that has not been taken advantage of yet? Perhaps there are practical impediments? However it can be done...

In Canada, a fraction the population of the US, you have:

- sledders teaching sledders as third party providers of sled-specific intro AST and advanced AST2 recreational courses (example: http://www.zacstracs.com/)

- you have sledders teaching sledders on professional CAC Avalanche Operations Level 1 and Level 2 courses (L2 is guide level avalanche training)

- and you have a sledder-specific version of Bruce Jamieson's "Backcountry Avalanche Awareness" course text book.

[kidwoo]

, it will be hard to find dedicated avy instructors that come from a snowmobile background.

They're around.

Here's one of the better known ones.
http://avalanche1.com/about-us/

Plenty of people grow up on sleds in the US and Canada with no connection to skiing whatsoever, and travel in the same terrain. I'm not sure how rock climbing or generic 'mountain travel' in the summer gives someone extra qualifications to teach snow safety. I mountain travel all the time on a mountain bike but that doesn't qualify me for knowing snowpack layers. Summiting el cap 20 times isn't going to improve that either.

There's lots of beard scratching in this thread about sledders this and sledders that but no matter what you're on, people do dumb shlt, and people make mistakes. I got a sled because I got tired of skiers potentially doing dumb shit above me, or around me. I used to go skiing all the time by myself in somewhat sketchy terrain with no beeper because I was by myself. Right about the same age this guy was. And sleds were still a distant concept.

I just really hope the eastern oregon avalanche center takes hold because it will at least add another data point that the rest of us sitting here pontificating on, already have where we live.

[Tap]

What does apply is that the eastern OR cascades have no forecasting center. It's crazy to me that tap and friends have to work so hard to get it done.

AyyyyyyMEN!

[goldenboy]

They're around.

Here's one of the better known ones.
http://avalanche1.com/about-us/

Plenty of people grow up on sleds in the US and Canada with no connection to skiing whatsoever, and travel in the same terrain. I'm not sure how rock climbing or generic 'mountain travel' in the summer gives someone extra qualifications to teach snow safety. I mountain travel all the time on a mountain bike but that doesn't qualify me for knowing snowpack layers. Summiting el cap 20 times isn't going to improve that either.

That's a great looking class, they certainly exist. And I'm sure there will be more in the future.

My point was only that "avalanche instructor" fits in nicely with other guide duties as part of a year-round career/profession. So in my mind, one of the difficulties in a snowmobile-based class will be finding instructors that have work the other 9 months of the year when they're not teaching snowmobile avy safety.