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  1. #1
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    Paulina Peak Fatality

    His friends started searching immediately. The slide was small. It was an open area. But beacons wouldn't have helped?
    http://www.ktvz.com/news/la-pine-mou...ictim/25258894
    Friends and family said Monday that Thomas was an experienced snowmobiler, even a snowmobile tour guide, and he knew the area better than anyone.... Experts estimated the slide was about 200 yards wide and 75-100 yards long.... While Kyle's friends were able to outrun the avalanche, he was buried beneath 3-5 feet of snow.... While Kyle and his friends were not carrying avalanche locator beacons, Shelton said they don't know if carrying one could have saved his life. The sheer volume of the compressed snow, which becomes like concrete, may have killed Kyle on impact
    and i kind of doubt the snow was compressed like concrete when it hit him, but I could be wrong
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  2. #2
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    Edited for douche removal.

    If you're really interested in my I'll advised comment read the next post.
    Last edited by flatNshallow; 04-01-2014 at 12:04 PM.
    "Those 1%ers are not an avaricious "them" but in reality the most entrepreneurial of "us". If we had more of them and fewer grandstanding politicians, we would all be better off."
    - Bradley Schiller, Prof. of Economics, Univ. Nevada - Reno.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatNshallow View Post
    Shhhhh!
    It's easier for his friends to sleep if they believe having avy gear (and presumably the training to know how to use it) would not have helped them save their buddy.
    That is a douchy thing to say. This isn't about you being cynical and superior from your desk, it's about the need for educating backcountry users.

    We (the Central Oregon Avalanche Association) work hard to get snowmobilers to be aware of the risks involved with using their machines in avalanche terrain, and to get them to think out owning and wearing beacons/shovel/probes when they ride. The snomo community is a challenging group to penetrate and to get to focus on getting and owning the gear.

    A cynical comment like yours only hurts our efforts to connect with this backcountry segment. Maybe they don't ski, but taking a superior, cynical attitude about them, especially in the face of a sad death in a local community, only divides us, and we need to be united.
    Let me lock in the system at Warp 2
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  4. #4
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    At least the journalist got it right.

    "It's a reminder for everyone to watch the conditions in the mountains, carry gear, including beacons and shovels -- and never underestimate the awesome, sometimes tragic power of Mother Nature."

  5. #5
    spook Guest
    it's odd when people say "he died doing what he loved most." i doubt choking to death on snow or getting broken in pieces is what he loved doing most.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tap View Post

    We (the Central Oregon Avalanche Association) work hard to get snowmobilers to be aware of the risks involved with using their machines in avalanche terrain, and to get them to think out owning and wearing beacons/shovel/probes when they ride. The snomo community is a challenging group to penetrate and to get to focus on getting and owning the gear.
    Maybe not the thread for it, but why is it a hard community to get thinking about this?

    I personally have heard the cost excuse yet you're typically riding a several thousand dollar sled, $100 plus full face, and driving a large truck at least...

    I'm sure there have been studies, I'm curious what the major barriers are. If cost is claimed, I personally think it's generally being used as an excuse (to cover ego/not wanting to be the guy in the group to say it's not safe & we need gear). That's my brief experience anyway.

  7. #7
    spook Guest
    the article was crazy. what were there, 3 accidents in succession, including a head on between two guys riding together?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    the article was crazy. what were there, 3 accidents in succession, including a head on between two guys riding together?
    ? where did you get that?
    Let me lock in the system at Warp 2
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyman683 View Post
    Maybe not the thread for it, but why is it a hard community to get thinking about this?

    I personally have heard the cost excuse yet you're typically riding a several thousand dollar sled, $100 plus full face, and driving a large truck at least...

    I'm sure there have been studies, I'm curious what the major barriers are. If cost is claimed, I personally think it's generally being used as an excuse (to cover ego/not wanting to be the guy in the group to say it's not safe & we need gear). That's my brief experience anyway.
    agree that it's probably a different thread.

    the cost excuse doesn't hold water...modded-up machines are so expensive....and the decision to do that instead of a beacon/shovel/probe is more of a culture thing, and we need to work to change it.

    There have been some great articles in The Avalanche Review about bringing awareness to snowmobilers....but they have to want it, which can be challenging for obvious and not so obvious reasons. For example, there was another really interesting TAR article about being aware of presenting to a snowmobile group but dressing like a skier or wearing ski-related gear....Patagonia/Arcteryx/etc vs. Klim/Fox/Skidoo...and how those non-verbal cues can set off barriers that don't need to exist when we talk about avalanche safety.
    Let me lock in the system at Warp 2
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  10. #10
    spook Guest
    i have no idea.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    it's odd when people say "he died doing what he loved most." i doubt choking to death on snow or getting broken in pieces is what he loved doing most.
    x2. That comment always strikes me as weird.

    Good luck with educating the community, Tap.

    Major bummer that this guy didn't make it.
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    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyman683 View Post
    Maybe not the thread for it, but why is it a hard community to get thinking about this?

    I personally have heard the cost excuse yet you're typically riding a several thousand dollar sled, $100 plus full face, and driving a large truck at least...
    So I'm at Buff Pass last week (popular sledski spot here in CO) - 5+ rigs in the lot, couple of sledski groups but mostly slednecks, probably 10 other riders total. Big group of guys with fully pimped out rides - highly modded sleds with full custom wraps, giant diesel trucks w/sled decks, etc. Do a beacon check with my buddy and get just his signal.

    Un. Fucking. Believable

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tap View Post
    That is a douchy thing to say. This isn't about you being cynical and superior from your desk, it's about the need for educating backcountry users.

    We (the Central Oregon Avalanche Association) work hard to get snowmobilers to be aware of the risks involved with using their machines in avalanche terrain, and to get them to think out owning and wearing beacons/shovel/probes when they ride. The snomo community is a challenging group to penetrate and to get to focus on getting and owning the gear.

    A cynical comment like yours only hurts our efforts to connect with this backcountry segment. Maybe they don't ski, but taking a superior, cynical attitude about them, especially in the face of a sad death in a local community, only divides us, and we need to be united.
    Tap,
    Guilty as charged and regret the post. Thanks for calling me out, it was deserved.
    "Those 1%ers are not an avaricious "them" but in reality the most entrepreneurial of "us". If we had more of them and fewer grandstanding politicians, we would all be better off."
    - Bradley Schiller, Prof. of Economics, Univ. Nevada - Reno.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyman683 View Post
    Maybe not the thread for it, but why is it a hard community to get thinking about this?
    Are there high-profile sledneck athletes promoting Avy Safety?

  15. #15
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    ^^Seems like a lot of the athletes who put on riding camps at least give an intro on avy safety and carrying gear.

    I think a lot has to do with the backgrounds of many sledders. For instance, my dad and I got mountain sleds when I was about 13 or 14. My parents weren't skiers, I had just started to snowboard, and the area I grew up in had a ski resort, but very few backcountry skiers. So, avalanche awareness was basically non-existent for us. The first two seasons of riding, we didn't have beacons, or probes, just shovels, and those were for digging out. We mostly rode by ourselves, so no seasoned riders were there to tell us about avy's. With that said, after a couple years, we'd read enough in magazines to make us buy gear and take an avy class. Not sure, how you reach the people that should know, but don't seem to care

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    it's odd when people say "he died doing what he loved most." i doubt choking to death on snow or getting broken in pieces is what he loved doing most.
    I think it's poor writing for a common sentiment, which should be, he lived doing what he loved until it cost him his life.
    But in this case it should read, "He lived doing what he loved, but was killed by a lack of discipline and dedication."
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    it's odd when people say "he died doing what he loved most." i doubt choking to death on snow or getting broken in pieces is what he loved doing most.
    no shit dude. he died snowmobiling.. thats obviously what they meant.
    long live the jahrator

  18. #18
    spook Guest
    are you sure? or is it just another shallow thing to say when the truth might come off as a little rough.

  19. #19
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    The culture is changing, at least in this area of south central BC. Every sled group that our local SAR has encountered this season had at least the minimum equip & training for companion rescue, and many have had airbag packs and some means of backcountry communication. That being said, all of our avy or search call-outs thus far this winter have been for sledders (with the stats caveat that the sledders greatly outnumber the self-guided backcountry skiers in the area the past several years).

  20. #20
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    Spin it however you want, but when someone dies like that there are really two options; you can sugar-coat it the way that the general public might better respond to, or you can report the facts available however gruesome or unsettling they might be.
    long live the jahrator

  21. #21
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    The backcountry ski/guiding/education industry doesn't exactly make it easy for slednecks to get educated. Pretty much every avy class is marketed only towards BC skiers/snowboarders, and the content is definitely geared that way, using the slopes that skiers like to ride and access as examples. A method of up uphill/downhill human-powered transit (ie skis or snowboard) is almost always a requirement of taking a Level 1 or Level 2 class. At a minimum, it's a snowshoes. I don't think I've ever seen a provider even attempt to offer a snowmobile-based avy course.

    The help of the sled dealers is also needed to help educate. When someone walks into a backcountry ski shop and asks "what do I need to get started?" the first part of the answer is usually "shovel, beacon, probe, and avalanche education." We can do better on encouraging that last item, but I digress. I don't think the same can be said of most snowmobile dealers, though many in Colorado now sell the basics as well as things like airbag packs.

    I've overall been impressed by the number of slednecks I see in CO that have basic avy gear or airbag packs, but as North said, there's still plenty out there with nothing.

  22. #22
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    Not directly related, but some very impressive sledneck avalanche rescue skills earlier this year in Cooke City: http://www.mtavalanche.com/accident/14/01/23

    The four rescuers had avalanche gear (Tracker 2 beacons, shovels and probes), no formal avalanche training but they were well read and practiced. One rider put his beacon on receive while the others turned theirs off and assembled shovels and probes. They could see a small piece of ski from the buried sled sticking out of the snow which, together with the last seen point, gave them an accurate trajectory of the victim. When the beacon indicated closeness to the victim they began probing. On the 6th poke they hit his boot and began digging. The victim was approximately four feet under the surface, lying on his back, head downhill about 25 feet above his sled. They could not unbuckle his helmet so they cut the strap off. He was not breathing and “Smurf blue,” drooling and bleeding from the mouth. Five to seven minutes had elapsed.

    One of the riders had CPR training from a Lamaze birthing class he took with his wife years prior. Without discernible breathing and his cold hands unable to feel for a pulse he laid the victim flat and began CPR compressions. One and a half to two minutes later the victim began breathing, but his eyes remained closed and he was unresponsive. A few minutes later he opened his eyes and said, “What took you guys so f***ing long!” The victim had no serious injury, just a blow to the chin, and rode back to town on his own sled. He was “ringy” overnight but had a clear head in the morning. His sore chest the next day was not enough to stop the group from riding again.

  23. #23
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    He went sledding the day after dying and getting CPR compressions? That's pretty badass, or normal in Cooke City?

    Interesting observation on disparate access to snow education b/t ski and snomo communities, hadn't thought of that. It's very concerning if you think about how the range of a sled opens up so many more risks, yet the education is less efficient in reaching them.

  24. #24
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    pretty standard in cooke city. sleds in cooke are like cougars in aspen. theyre everywhere, but it you dont know how to ride one, its gonna be embarrassing at best.
    long live the jahrator

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    The backcountry ski/guiding/education industry doesn't exactly make it easy for slednecks to get educated. Pretty much every avy class is marketed only towards BC skiers/snowboarders, and the content is definitely geared that way, using the slopes that skiers like to ride and access as examples. A method of up uphill/downhill human-powered transit (ie skis or snowboard) is almost always a requirement of taking a Level 1 or Level 2 class. At a minimum, it's a snowshoes. I don't think I've ever seen a provider even attempt to offer a snowmobile-based avy course.

    The help of the sled dealers is also needed to help educate. When someone walks into a backcountry ski shop and asks "what do I need to get started?" the first part of the answer is usually "shovel, beacon, probe, and avalanche education." We can do better on encouraging that last item, but I digress. I don't think the same can be said of most snowmobile dealers, though many in Colorado now sell the basics as well as things like airbag packs.
    Excellent points here.

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