Avalanche Awareness...does anybody have any?

[skifishbum]

avalanches and shark attacks
such small #ers of actual deaths
such large amount of hype
god bless the junkies

[icelanticskier]

I think what some people dont realize is that no matter who/where you are, if you go out day after day, season after season, youre gonna get slid on. youre gonna lose a partner, and/or you just might get caught yourself. the odds are not in your favor.

getting slid on is a rite of passage, man

rog

[yeahman]

I have kids. Meadow skipping / hippy turns are still pretty fun.

Yeah I know I could do it that way but just choose not to. Quit rock climbing too, something I did for 20 years--even easy routes don't appeal to me any more. I get my fix skiing on area and doing a little peak bagging these days, and it seems fulfilling.

But I'll add that my wife and I didn't have kids until I was almost 40, so I had two decades to get all the climbing and risk sports out of my system. If I'd had kids at 25 or 30 I might have made different decisions. Mentally I was just kind of done with that stuff by the time the kids came along.

[icelanticskier]

Yeah I know I could do it that way but just choose not to. Quit rock climbing too, something I did for 20 years--even easy routes don't appeal to me any more. I get my fix skiing on area and doing a little peak bagging these days, and it seems fulfilling.

But I'll add that my wife and I didn't have kids until I was almost 40, so I had two decades to get all the climbing and risk sports out of my system. If I'd had kids at 25 or 30 I might have made different decisions. Mentally I was just kind of done with that stuff by the time the kids came along.

I hear all that^^^^^^^^. Happy to get out and play a coupla hours a day every day, but after living a life of pretty much zero responsibility and getting after it for well over 20 years till my early 40's, i'm happy and satisfied for more chill times with a new family. Don't even pine to travel anymore. Surf and mtb right from my door and ski when it's good, but i don't even like driving anymore.

rog

[powdork]

i look at it the opposite way
1. Kids want their parents to do what makes them happy. They MOST DEFINITELY do not want to be the reason their parents don't do what makes them happy.
2. I want my kids to grab everything they can from life. They don't learn that from watching their father consistently take the safer road.

[newbreak]

Unless they're dead, then the kids aren't so happy.

[icelanticskier]

Or broken and can't be daddy 100%

rog

[bodywhomper]

something that helped me change my game/thinking and made meadow skipping mo fun was touring with wide fun-shaped skis. for touring in a maritime snowpack, the ease to doodle around and make turns on low angle wet/dense/deep snow, where i would normally be pushing my way downhill on 100mm camber/sidecut skis is pretty awesome. i know many argue the subject that these types of skis have enabled many more to enter high consequence avi terrain when it's not appropriate because of the snowpack, which i think has some validity, but i would argue that it's also enabled skiing fun to be had in the opposite type of terrain, too.

i look at it the opposite way
1. Kids want their parents to do what makes them happy. They MOST DEFINITELY do not want to be the reason their parents don't do what makes them happy.

^^^ IMO, if this is going on for somebody and they are carrying that attitude about their children and their life(styles), then that person has some problems beyond the subject generally at hand in this thread.

[ill-advised strategy]

I blame the surge in AT gear.

I blame the way ski media culture denigrates inbounds skiing, let alone skiing hardpack and bumps.

[skifishbum]

fuck dude if it weren't for the damn straightchuters book and my inability to
just say no
to a bunch of shop rats hell bent on booterin out to wolverine to ski the untracked steep n deep.
i'd prob be a zipperline consiour or at least be able to carve a turn
stead of turn earnin junkies
skiied the kesslers again 2 day
all junkies got a drug o choice
thought and talked about Alecs
fine young mag
like the zebra guys says
protect yourself at all times
packin your skis to ship
git sum

[powdork]

Or broken and can't be daddy 100%

Unless they're dead, then the kids aren't so happy.

dad's can die of lots of things. heart attacks brought on by stress for instance.
with or without kids, i already don't want to die. the fact that i have kids doesn't really come into play when its decision time. the fact that i'm a pussy does.

[newbreak]

One's Risk tolerance changes typically after kids, close calls or both. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes risk tolerance has nothing to do with it when you're dumb. Or ignorant. Or unaware of the consequences.

Whatever your RT, it's personal. Cool you get on it while having kids. That's your mojo. I personally don't like to push the margins of error. I'm content with the experience, not with the notches on my belt.

[yeahman]

i look at it the opposite way
1. Kids want their parents to do what makes them happy. They MOST DEFINITELY do not want to be the reason their parents don't do what makes them happy.
2. I want my kids to grab everything they can from life. They don't learn that from watching their father consistently take the safer road.

Those are valid points. Reminds me of an interview I read with Laird Hamilton where he said he wasn't going to quit big-wave surfing just because he had kids because surfing big waves was part of who he was and he didn't want his kids to not know the "real" him, nor did he want the kids to think they were responsible for him quitting doing what he loved. He thought that would be tragic.

That said, my kids still think I'm kind of a nut when it comes to skiing and elk hunting and a lot of the things I do passionately. And I've also come to realize that what I do in my free time doesn't mean a whole lot to them, they just want a dad who is kind and spends time with them. All the other stuff they really couldn't care less about, even though they are aware of it.

Funny thing happened the other day when my 10-year-old daughter, who's becoming quite a strong skier, said that when she grows up she "wants to be a serious skier like Daddy." I suppose my heart should have been bursting with pride, but the first thought that popped into my head was, please don't ruin your life like that. LOL

[icelanticskier]

thought this would be a good read for this TR.

this weekends update from the longest running/oldest avalanche forecasting center in the country, if not north america.

kinda long but some good info:

http://www.mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org/

rog

[bodywhomper]

Those are valid points. Reminds me of an interview I read with Laird Hamilton where he said he wasn't going to quit big-wave surfing just because he had kids because surfing big waves was part of who he was and he didn't want his kids to not know the "real" him, nor did he want the kids to think they were responsible for him quitting doing what he loved. He thought that would be tragic.

imo, this is just an excuse for self justification (to others). i use it myself. i'd imagine that P.S Hoffman used it, too, to justify his lifestyle choices.

[userA]

skied through a huge deposition zone today, my awareness was heightened.
b

[icelanticskier]

trimmed down the read from above:

"People sometimes think that assessing avalanche conditions, ice climbing in avalanche terrain, or skiing mid winter in Tuckerman is crazy. Generally this assumption is held by people who might think Bart Simpson clapping loudly can trigger an avalanche. (personally, I love that scene in The Simpsons Movie). If avalanches were completely random events, then these activities would indeed be crazy. But we know that avalanches, like most everything else, aren’t random and play by a set of physical laws that govern our known universe. Als,o like anything else governed by physical laws of gravity, friction, and thermodynamics, the prediction and study of these events can get complicated. Fortunately, accurately predicting avalanches isn’t really possible and I remind myself of this whenever I travel in avalanche terrain. We can evaluate snow pack conditions, weather forecasts and terrain features and, a lot of the time, we can make pretty accurate generalizations about the likelihood of an avalanche. Guides, experienced climbers and skiers, and avalanche forecasters all do this to varying degrees. And it doesn’t take long playing this game to realize that no matter how carefully you study those conditions and learn about those physical laws that govern our universe, two possibilities will always exist. One is simple. You can make a mistake. The second is more insidious. You had incomplete information. Uncertainty is out there. This is why we hedge our bets. We wear seatbelts. Helmets. We carry beacons, shovels and probes. And we don’t travel in groups in steep terrain particularly on days with active wind loading and persistent weak layers buried in the snow.

The really maddening thing is that I can easily take chances with no adverse outcome. I can text while driving without incident hundreds of times without incident. Until one day I ram into some poor fool at a stoplight. If the only risk is to me, no big deal. It’s a free country right? But, let’s say for example, I join a small group of people riding in Tuckermans. If I ignore the wind loading and low probably/high consequence concerns of a deeper slab avalanche and I am by myself, fine. My mother would be upset, but hey it’s a free country. But, say I have folks in my group that are new to the terrain, have limited understanding of avalanches and their risk, and I am leading them, maybe even egging them on in subtle or not so subtle ways, I create two potential outcomes. One is that we climb up and ride down without incident. Great. We had a ride we can brag about. And we learned that poor travel techniques are ok and we can carry this habit out into the world and apply them to other terrain with other friends. Texting while driving is fine right, as long as you don’t hit anyone? The other outcome is more immediately dire. You trigger an avalanche and EVERYONE is caught, maybe buried, maybe killed.

Given that the physical laws governing avalanches are complicated and create degrees of uncertainty in our universe, most rational people try to reduce their exposure to risks, especially when it doesn’t cost us anything. Saving that text for later, or at the stoplight, are two ways with varying degrees of effectiveness to reduce our risk. Each have their own cost, in timeliness of the delivered message. The time cost (or any other cost) of travelling separately from safe zone to safe zone, approaching high consequence terrain from above, or avoiding the fall line of avalanches whenever possible is so minimal that it should be an easy choice. But frequently safer alternatives aren’t chosen and, for some, they may be unknown options.

I know I’m getting preachy….my apologies. On a brighter note, on our way over to South Gully from Right Gully we watched a party of two travel one at a time and then ski one at a time down the Chute. One “straight-lined” a narrow variation of main Chute. They did some digging on the way and reduced their exposure with their travel techniques and ultimately skied very bold lines in conditions with lingering uncertainty. A buried weak layer or two, some thinner trigger points and a sluff generated slab at the choke point which always carries a low probability/high consequence price tag were risks that they were probably aware of but that they handled effectively. Hats off to those of you doing your homework and handling these risks and enjoying the rewards of a well played journey through uncertainty.

On a more practical note…a look at the weekend weather. -Frank

rog

[Trace Hardslab]

Sure, lots of people have avalanche awareness lots of the time. But all the people don't have avalanche awareness all the time.

[skiracer88_00]

In general, I prefer mostly meadow skipping or skiing the resort mid winter and waiting until an isothermal snowpack/corn cycle to get up on anything big. Getting on bigger stuff mid winter is just not worth the risk to me. I can wait until late April or May and safely ski just about anything I want.

[cmor]

All the stats point to greater avalanche awareness than in the past. It's a process.

[itsnowjoke]

All the stats point to greater avalanche awareness than in the past. It's a process.

In last friday's Uinta Snowmobile fatality, all riders were carrying beacons, probes, and shovels. The beacon helped them find the body quicker. The guy left behind three kids and a wife. I feel very bad for them. Whatever process the guy was using, it didn't work.

[userA]

getting awareness the hard way at crystal mt.
b

[totaliboard]

All the stats point to greater avalanche awareness than in the past. It's a process.

what kind of process?

[userA]

trial & error
b

[totaliboard]

Yea. Well, given the data available, and what we all (theoretically) know, trial and error seems like a rudimentary, if not unsustainable process.. at best.