Reccomend me a good electric muscle stim machine

[leroy jenkins]

Was using one to help stimulate my VMO to grow since it has been slow to, and is the weak link after ACL surgery almost 2 years ago, but that unit crapped out on me after only 5 months of use.

These things are incredibly frustrating to shop for, with many different choices, some seemingly junk, others extremely expensive. Most people that review them on amazon seem to be reviewing the TENS function. Anyone got a rec for something moderately priced that does the job?

Don't care about TENS, just EMS, something powerful, that won't crap out after just a few months of use.

[leroy jenkins]

I think the vast majority of people who are in the market for one of these have health insurance, and just get an extremely expensive (and overpriced) one through their insurance. I do not and I would like a decent model fairly priced, couple hundred bucks for something decent seems fair.

Seems like every website I can find selling this stuff has multiple complaints for fraud and horrible customer service posted elsewhere online. WTF is with this industry, why is this so hard?

[rod9301]

I've been using the compex sport for about 2 years, twice a year, in may for the mountain bike season, and in october for the ski season.

I use out on quads and butt.

I've been lifting weights for 20+ years, and I leg press 600+ lbs.

Now all I use for these two muscle groups is the compex.

Hamstrings,a machine, and upper body, pullups, pushups and a few other things.
Anyway, I gained 2 inches in my quads within 6 weeks of using the compex.
The contractions are unbelievably strong, more than anything I did on a leg press.

I would buy the cheapest compex you can get.

All you need is strength, and active recovery (like a massage) modes.

A lot of the other modes on more expensive models are fluff.

by the way, to gain muscle, you need to get to pretty high current levels, so most of the muscle fibers are recruited. On mine, max is 120, and I work at 95+.

Definitely can't watch tv while the muscle contracts.

Sorry for the lengthy discourse, I just think it's awesome.

By.the way, I heard that globus m makes a good unit, but I haven't first hand experience with it.

And I just ski, mountain bike and climb, no connection with compex.

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[jma233]

The portable take home units are all the same. I beleve the Compex units are marketed for athletic recovery and therefore the markup is something like 10x.

Check out an LG Tec Elite. I believe it costs $75 or so. You probably need a doctors prescription which most are happy to do. Good electrodes are important also and ValuTrode 2"x2" are good ones.

If you really want to compare units look at the programable specs if they are even listed. The most important ones are pulse duration and current and the LG unit maximum pulse duration is 300 microseconds and the max current is 100 mA. If I go to even 50 mA at 300 usec then the contraction is too strong for me.

[leroy jenkins]

Hmm I've been using the biostim before it broke, which has a listed top end of 120mA. I use it on the highest setting and wish there was something higher.

[rod9301]

How much did the biostim cost.

Were you getting really strong contractions @120, I assume quads.

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[leroy jenkins]

The biostim cost about $75 if I remember right, although i can't find it for sale on amazon any more. I contacted the company and they are going to warranty it, but I'm still thinking of getting something with a bit more juice if I can.

I only used it on my VMOs since those are the weak link in both my knees, although more so in the knee that underwent the operation, but I did get strong contractions from it, although even when combining it with weighted knee extension exercises while using the biotsim for hours a day, I NEVER get that sore lactic acid feeling in my VMOs, and they are still struggling (and kind of failing) to keep up with the strength the rest of my quads are developing.

I think this might of just been a lifelong weakness in my knees that I have only noticed after growing weaker after surgery, but my kneecaps still obviously track to the outside when I bend my knees and I feel like a stronger stim machine would benefit me tremendously.

[rod9301]

Something doesn't make sense.
After not using the compex for a while,i have to increase the current gradually, maybe 10 ma per week, otherwise my muscles get very sore, delayed soreness, 2nd day after using it.

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[Maker]

rod9301, Can you share what you did to achieve your results because they sound pretty good? I have a different device (Kneehab)....questions are:

- how long was each session?
- did you use pulses (if so how long) or sustained contraction?
- what contraction level?

I get pretty powerful contractions but I am never sore.

[rod9301]

I used it 3 times a week, started at 40 ended up at 90, session is 25 minutes
Plus warmup and cooldown.
Level 5, whatever that means

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[jma233]

Pulse duration is as important as current when it comes to the strength of contraction from EMS. Pulse duration is measured in microseconds (typically 50-600 usec) and is different than cycle time which is measured in seconds. And then there is frequency which for EMS should stay somewhere from 60-80Hz.

So in a nutshell, the current is supplied in 'packets' of waveforms. The amplitude of the waveforms is defined by the current. The wavelength of the waveform is defined by the frequency, and the size of the 'packets' is defined by the pulse duration. Cycle time is simply when the device is active and can be thought of as 'macro-packets' I suppose. When someone is using a continuous setting it means the cycle time is the same as the treatment time (like 15 minutes) but the pulse duration is still 300 usec or so.

It's confusing as hell which is probably why most states require a doctors prescription to own the things, although I think the only real danger is skin irritation from too strong a setting or too frequent use. For a reference, I use my unit with the following settings: 80Hz, 300usec pulse duration, 3sec ON cycle and 9sec OFF cycle and when it's placed on a healthy muscle like my left glutmax it feels like the muscle wants to rip my body in half at a setting of 50mA.

Edit: I screwed up the explanation of pulse duration above. Basically, frequency with these things is measured in pulses per second and not Hz. Somehow its a different measurement. To be perfectly honest , I don't have an exact understanding of what the waveforms look like. I have a feeling that when these things were developed 50yrs ago the engineers modified the waveforms to be compatible with our biology and the doctors who used the things made up their own lingo using terms like pulse duration and pulse per second. Its certainly not standard lingo for wave mechanics.

[rod9301]

Interesting.
The compex has an on (contraction) time of about 5 seconds, and an off time (very mild pulsations) of about 40 seconds, which I believe gives the muscle sufficient time to rest.

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[irul&ublo]

Reccomend me a good electric muscle stim machine

Here...................

[lookinback]

just a warning, theres a lot of misleading information in this thread. Go see your PT and discuss an exercise protocol

You can't compare amplitudes between people or even between sessions...think about skin resistance and electrode placement, ect. ect.

Also make sure you are using the correct waveform, have fun trying to build muscle with a TENS unit

[leroy jenkins]

So what information is misleading? You seem knowledgeable, care to share some with us?

I had surgery 2 years ago, I'm not still going to phys therapy, knee is pretty good, just have some persistent vmo weakness that I just now realize has actually been a lifelong issue that never bothered me before because I was young. I'm continuing doing the things my therapist told me I should do to strengthen my vmo. He also said I should get an EMS machine if my vmos seem sluggish to grow.

So can you recomend a stim machine? I know the difference between TENS and EMS, thats why I asked for info on EMS.


I've got a compex in the mail. Fuck thats a lot of money, but I bought it from amazon and I can always return it if it doesnt seem to be a lot better than the biostim. If it actually works my vmos to the point of real soreness, well then I guess its money well spent.

[lph]

Besides data that consists of 'IME' anyone got any good scientific literature that these things do anything but help condition muscles and aid in recovery? I can't find any literature to suggest they build muscle mass. I did find articles that they can help prevent atrophy, but that doesn't equal building muscle mass.

Also, your pt should have a bunch of good VMO isolation exercises. Leg extensions in the gym would not be one of them.

FYI, I have the Marc pro, that I am currently using on my quads.

[jma233]

Also, your pt should have a bunch of good VMO isolation exercises. Leg extensions in the gym would not be one of them..

What are some good VMO isolation exercises? I don't need descriptions, just exercise names and I can google them. Gym leg extensions seem to cause the strongest vmo contraction for me.

[JTrue]

Leroy, have you tried any type of hip/glute exercises, clamshells, windshield wipers, etc? These can help. Are you getting pain from maltracking? Seems like the most current research shows that it's almost impossible to isolate the vmo, so doing exercises that target all the quad muscles work best. I have some issues with tracking, a lot of it is caused by a tight IT band. I find working my core, hips/glutes, and balancing out my hamstring to quad strength has really helped. Doing one legged romanian deadlifts, and pistol squats as well. I find that exercises where you are doing some sort of functional movement give the most benefit, YMMV.

[leroy jenkins]

As far as exercises for isolating the vmo go, ya, you can't truly isolate it, but doing extensions seated on a flat surface with a foam roller under my knee and wearing ankle weights seems to help. Open to suggestions though. I stay away from the leg extension machine at the gym.


LPH, No I dont. Compex seems to claim theirs do, but could just be marketing. I think even if they dont increase muscle mass on their own, if, combined with other exercises, they can continually make the vmos more tired than the rest of the quad, muscle mass will increase, as long as they are combined with a variety of exercises. I ski BC, do plyometrics, mnt bike, and am climbing now.


Jtrue, my hips are not all that strong right now but they seem to be getting stronger. I am not targeting them directly but did while in PT after surgery, and am now doing yoga and skinning, both of which seem to give them a workout. My hamstrings are not super strong either, but back when I was doing PT my therapist told me he thought they were strong enough and he was confidant any future issues would probably come from vmo weakness. I guess it wouldn't hurt to focus on hips and hams for a week or two and see how I feel.


I do get some pain around the inside of the kneecap at times due to tracking issues, but I also can just visibly see that the kneecap tracks to the outside when I bend my knee, its pretty obvious. I can also visibly see that my VMO is not as big as it should be compared to the rest of my quad. Some of this is an imediate problem as I would like stronger more stable knees, but some of it also seems like something that has the potential to cause lots of wear on my knees over time and be debilitating when I'm older, which I would like to nip in the bud if possible.

I do have issues with foot pronation which I suppose could have something to do with things.

[lph]

leroy, i am right there with you. I have ALL the same issues, although I am not post op.

As stated above, strengthening the VMO, is only part of the deal. As I am learning you have to work on a bunch of the hip stabilizer muscles, including glutes.

in addition, you gotta keep the hip flexors flexible.

having now been to PT for several months and to about 10 private pilates sessions in tahoe, I have learned that, overly tight hip flexors, a weak posterior chain and patellofemoral pain is VERY common in areas where people primarily ski and bike.

I have googled VMO exercises and they are very much isometric, eccentric type exercises.
I do those both in pilates and at home. I do other glute/hip exercises, both at home and at pilates. (again I googled best glute exercises), i stretch my hip flexors alot, I use a stick on my lateral quads which are way, way stronger than my VMO, and get all kinds of ugly knots in them. I use the EMS. Like you i don't want to end up a gimp so i am hitting it with everything I can.

btw, pilates has been tremendously helpful.

[leroy jenkins]

My hips and hams are extremely flexible. They might not be strong enough but they are flexible enough that it is difficult to find a way to effectively stretch them. Trust me, I'm doing the stretches right, they are just very flexible. As are my quads calves and basically everything else.

I'm now actually thinking that this probably all boils down to my feet. They pronate a lot, I've always had issues with it but I think if I could get that sorted out maybe I'd have more luck with the VMO growing.

[rod9301]

The studies on ems that I've seen were comparisons with weight lifting,, and they show that ems builds muscles similarly to weight lifting.

In my case,i use ems because squating with heavy weights hurts my knees, I have arthritis behind the patella.

I definitely measured my quads and they went from 22 to 24 "in circumference and my glutes
From 39 to 41+.
Until about 8 years ago, I used leg presses regularly, working up to 12 reps@600 lbs.

Then, I stopped using the leg press, thinking that mb and skiing was enough, and three years ago, I could barely press 400.

Because of knee pain,i wasn't able to use a leg press, so I started to use a compex.

This fall I used a leg press after many years of not using it, and i'm doing 12 reps@600 lbs. I attribute the increase in strength to using the ems.

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[lph]

rod, if you can find a study showing that EMS = to weightlifting I would love to read it. the one decent study i found showed it did nothing for muscle mass.

leroy, my flexibility is not a problem either. in my case it is a bunch of weak hip stabilizers that are leading to patellar tracking problems. And, yeah, when i went to PT for my knees they did a pretty complete foot and gait evaluation which can contribute to patellar tracking problems.

[JTrue]

Yeah, I hear you on the longterm wear and tear issue, that's what I'm most worried about as well. If I'm feeling pain now, that means there is a structure being damaged.

If you think the issue is stemming from pronation have you had someone look at your gait? Any orthotics?

As others have mentioned there are a lot of other issues that can cause maltracking, or exacerbate the condition. I would highly recommend starting some clamshells with a band. I started off with reps, but lately have been doing 4 reps of isometric holds, 1 minute each. Work your way up. I almost guarantee it will help you. Same thing with core, try some planks, ab roll outs, etc. It's the whole package usually, not just one thing causing it.

[leroy jenkins]

Ya, I've had a bunch of different orthotics, starting a couple years before my knee surgery. They 'worked' to the point that my foot pain went away and I was able to continue being active, but you can still visibly see that my feet are so pronated the tib/fib don't go into the center of the foot like they should, they pretty much line up behind the big toe. Always thought it would get better as the muscles in my foot got stronger but it never has.

I'm going to make an appointment with a foot/ankle/knee ortho specialist here in SLC soon. Fuck, I don't have the money for this shit and don't have insurance but fuck it seems like the only option at this point. I've been trying to resolve these issues for like 4 years, I think even without the acl surgery this would probably still be starting to be an issue.