CAIC just tweeted a slide in East Vail - 4 caught.

[montanaskier]

Not routinely, that I know of. I have seen them bomb areas outside the gates in BSB.

[Lindahl]

They sometimes will bomb right behind the lift, before the wall even starts, but I've never seen them do it off/behind the wall. They likely do that to avoid it from going naturally, which might scare some of their guests, who know nothing about avalanches. I also have seen them bomb parts of the BSB backcountry, but quite sporadically, so definitely don't take that into consideration.

East vail has always scared me. The furthest east I will ski outside the gates at vail is mushroom bowl.... generally speaking, much safer

I'm sure you know this, but for others who might stumble upon reading this, the large majority of Mushroom Bowl is not safer. You don't have long slide paths, but it is plenty long enough to bury or maim and has been the site of numerous accidents, including critical injuries that have come close to killing. Mushroom as a whole is just like East Vail - only a small section is relatively safe. Many paths aren't as blantently obvious, and one could argue that Mushroom is even more dangerous because of this.

[zartagen]

Not routinely, that I know of. I have seen them bomb areas outside the gates in BSB.

Ever since the death near Millers, I think they've bombed there before they open that gate for the year. I also seem to recall bomb craters on bushwhacker early season as well.

I agree about mushroom bowl being just as dangerous as East Vail. Just a few years ago there were a number of accidents with people getting swept through trees.

[Lindahl]

Ever since the death near Millers, I think they've bombed there before they open that gate for the year. I also seem to recall bomb craters on bushwhacker early season as well.

Makes sense. Pretty sure the only times I've seen craters out there has been early season as well.

[IVplay]

Now I'm not a local or anything, but why don't they (vail) through a double in there and do safety work so that no one else, or fewer people die? You can't have such a dangerous area so close to a major resort and turn a blind eye to it.

[Hott Butt Mud]

Now I'm not a local or anything, but why don't they (vail) through a double in there and do safety work so that no one else, or fewer people die? You can't have such a dangerous area so close to a major resort and turn a blind eye to it.

A resort 'Operator' can't perform control work on an area that is not within their permit area. This type of work would be against a long standing agreement with the USFS.

[Wildman]

mushroom bowl.... generally speaking, much safer

Actually it's not. Blanket statements
Like this can be dangerous....

[summit]

Just put up a story on the homepage with some input from this thread... thanks everyone for your honest and thoughtful posts:

http://bit.ly/1eI8gul

Your article is that long yet has nothing about how to avoid such accidents? How to avoid getting 4 people in one slide? Safe travel? Good communication? Safe zones? Awareness of other groups? Doesn't TGR want you to promote BC safety in the process of fishing for more site hits?

[DasBlunt]

Your article sucks. One giant load of cut and paste and summarizing and nothing about how to avoid such accidents? How to avoid getting 4 people in one slide? Safe travel? Good communication? Safe zones? Awareness of other groups? Doesn't TGR want you to promote BC safety in the process of fishing for more site hits from tragedy?

First three paragraphs were well done, got the point across and for a reporter, is expected. The rest is journalism, not sure how much better it could be given the context he is allowed.

The post you made which was a repeat from another, was great too, I wish it was included in Ryan's article.

[summit]

Pretty obvious that CO mountain pass traffic and resort-accessed backcountry traffic is soaring. But quantifying that growth is challenging. So the exponential increases in traffic (at least in East Vail and Bear Creek) has not necessarily translated into an exponential increase in fatalities. (Incidents? Could be another story. I know people who have had close calls back there and don't report anything.)
Why aren't fatalities following traffic spikes?
...
I keep coming back to this stat:
Eight avalanche fatalities in East Vail since 1986:
1-7-14, 1-4-08, 1-8-08, 3-4-96, 1-12-93, 12-3-92, 1-2-90, 2-26-86
Five of those were in the first half of January.

Ok let us talk about "stats." 8 fatalities over more than 25 years are not enough events to measure any trends or judge any variable. The data are too few. There are too many confounding variables beyond traffic. We cannot use fatalities to speculate on much of anything in such a small area. Fatalities are so sporadic that you don't have good data to say that taking the traffic up by even 10x should result in notably more fatalities over less than a decade. There is no power in the numbers.

You need much bigger populations and more data to see a trend (and still there are many confounders):





Statistically speaking, five of those in January is not shocking either, both because of the sample is small and because January is the #1 month for fatalities.



Bottomline, there is NOT enough data to say that fatalities lack correlation with increased traffic in EV. Only time will tell. Nationally, we can absolutely say that fatalities correlate with traffic, although we remain unclear if it is in lockstep.

Now, let us talk about incidents. Now we are dealing with anecdotal reports mostly and so our data is challenging we don't have a good dataset. But anyone who skis EV knows that the number of avalanche incidents where people have been caught is up the past few years. So, unless the grapevine's efficiency can be blamed for all of that, the number of incidents is correlating somewhat with increased traffic.

[Crampedon]

One giant load of cut and paste and summarizing and nothing about how to avoid such accidents? How to avoid getting 4 people in one slide? Safe travel? Good communication? Safe zones? Awareness of other groups? Doesn't TGR want you to promote BC safety in the process of fishing for more site hits from tragedy?

Indeed. Did anyone in the affected group know about the slide several days earlier with the brothers? It was all over the news. That could have gone very differently. The line Edwin33 skied that slid that day was a bit more conservative than CDC but not much. The solo skier (pole strap guy) saved a few days before rescued by the random snowboarder at Loveland? What was he thinking?

There are so many reasons NOT to take a group off that cornice without precise protocol and snowpack knowledge, that I think anything written referring to the accident should, as Summit succinctly points out, preach safer back/slack country travel and how to do it. At least add a link to CAIC or these:
http://avalanche.org/tutorial/tutorial.html
http://www.nsp.org/slopesafety/backcountrysafety.aspx
Even 9news is on it-http://www.9news.com/news/article/37...he-safety-tips

BCA is the best with free instruction videos-
http://www.backcountryaccess.com/edu...out-av-safety/

It is a huge sad loss for family, friends and community. BUT, did they dig pits? It was 33'+ degrees by 11 am in the sun on east aspects. Did they realized CAIC was warning of dangerous wind-slabs like crazy all week, every day? A page back Shrubs says someone probably put tracks on old man's today. The advisory for today is-

"Considerable (3) Dangerous avalanche conditions. Cautious route-finding and conservative decision-making essential."

I'd hate to see the gates close or anyone else get hurt, but what does it take for people to stay out of avalanches?

As Bruce Tremper says in "Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain"… Stay out of avalanche terrain!

[Lindahl]

The line Edwin33 skied that slid that day was a bit more conservative than CDC but not much.

It's actually quite a bit more conservative (the line, not necessarily the decision), based on how those two zones load, how the slope angles set up, the activity they see, and especially the consequences. About 50'-100' skiers right of Edwin's tracks over to Tweeners is getting closer though, as it gets a lot more windslab and is littered with trigger points. Either way, CDC is just plain downright bad news in the conditons we have. I still think they likely entered via NBA, or at least intended to - I just can't fathom how someone could even entertain the idea of CDC right now. I guess we'll see when the report comes out.

BUT, did they dig pits?

No point. There's no way to do that safely up there, at least for a pit that would be even slightly relevant for CDC/NBA. Benchmark is easier, if you know what you're doing.

A page back Shrubs says someone probably put tracks on old man's today.

It wasn't today, he said 'the other day'. That was likely Radek's tracks. I know he was out there within a few days before this accident. The only other person I've seen out there on that side this early in the season is Seth, but he knows better for the current conditions. We've done it a few times as well, but again, in very different conditions.

[totaliboard]

Now I'm not a local or anything, but why don't they (vail) through a double in there and do safety work so that no one else, or fewer people die? You can't have such a dangerous area so close to a major resort and turn a blind eye to it.

then where would you stop bombing? push the gates out further every storm? its actually not a dangerous area thats close to the ski resort, its the fact that someone decided to put a ski resort next to a dangerous area. and before there was a ski resort there, it wouldnt even qualify as dangerous. cus its not. avalanches are not dangerous. getting caught, buried, or injured in one is.

[bendtheski]

Unfortunately I think the message that many get from some of the highly publicized survival stories like the 12/22 slide, or Meesh's little ride, or the ABS jong is, "hey, getting caught in a slide is no big deal", not "holy shit, I need to avoid getting caught!"

No matter what information is reported, if that's the takeaway for most, we're not going to see a reduction in the numbers of people making bad choices any time soon.

[Tommy Jong]

I'm sure you know this, but for others who might stumble upon reading this, the large majority of Mushroom Bowl is not safer. You don't have long slide paths, but it is plenty long enough to bury or maim and has been the site of numerous accidents, including critical injuries that have come close to killing. Mushroom as a whole is just like East Vail - only a small section is relatively safe. Many paths aren't as blantently obvious, and one could argue that Mushroom is even more dangerous because of this.

Agreed 100%, the mushroom bowl isn't a safe choice by any means. It doesn't have the vert or open space to allow for massive slides but there are plenty of places to get killed. Given the conditions and the instability of the snowpack this year, any backcountry around Vail is going to be extremely sketchy.

[CTR]

Mushroom Bowl is indeed uncontrolled backcountry, yes, and of course all the risks that go with uncontrolled backcountry which this incident so clearly/tragically illustrates.....but it is a different animal than East Vail.....skiers left is steeper, more treed and has a small but significant cliff band (I don't ski there since my first day there thirty years ago)....the farther skiers right you go (actually a long ways) it is less steep, more open, without the cliffs (where I do ski occasionally)......Yes it is backcountry, but completely different compass direction/aspect, way less steep, no one ever killed back there (yet!?)..........this is clearly a dangerous time/conditions in the Colorado backcountry, but my point is that Mushroom and East Vail absolutely are different (though both uncontrolled backcountry and of course not to say Mushroom is risk free) and to specifically equate them is dogmatically misleading.......but, don't be stupid in the backcountry anywhere! Thanks, Chet

[Canada1]

Throwing bombs outside boundaries is opening a door for liability that would probably make corporate mad. Probably best not discussed and documented in chat rooms.

I've justified risks in those chutes based on it being ski cut. I was similar in age at the time to the deceased. I was a lucky fool.

The idea of making it part of the ski area means it is no longer back country and your window to ski it will be several days a year if at all.

I can think of so many places at resorts that have access as easy as this, or easier that are similarly dangerous. Lots of those are on sight lines from the resort that make it easier to see naturals that have occurred than EV.

Links on websites will only effect the sort of people that read here. The sort of people that are looking to be educated. I don't know the answers, but I know education fits in their somehow. I think about a test to go out a gate from a resort, but the very existance of that test is a door to liabiltiy. It also stands against some freedoms and right to access public lands that are deeply felt by me. In the end, status quo is what will happen, and those who read pages like this will learn from others.

[angler99]

A resort 'Operator' can't perform control work on an area that is not within their permit area. This type of work would be against a long standing agreement with the USFS.

I may be very mistaken, but was told that Mushroom and parts of Benchmark are in fact in Vail's permit area. I operated a snowcat for Vail a long time ago and would routinely maintain the rescue road from the bottom of old Chair 10 all the way up to the top of Benchmark, then drop down the poma lift line. Now, I don't think that means they should do avy work outside the boundaries that Vail has set up for guests, but I do wonder if they have the legal right to do so.

[angler99]

No point. There's no way to do that safely up there, at least for a pit that would be even slightly relevant for CDC/NBA. Benchmark is easier, if you know what you're doing.

This is correct regarding the pit. No safe spot to do it if you wanted to dig that zone, at least that I am aware of.

[WaistDeepGroomers]

Hey Summit - thanks for keeping me honest! I included one of the charts you mentioned and its implications below Quienes' excerpt in the blog post, and added links to our round-up of early season avalanche education clinics, seminars, and classes at the top and bottom of the post. All of you, please keep providing feedback on what you think should be included in tragic posts like these. We at TGR pride ourselves on our efforts at backcountry safety, and anyone can feel free to PM me or e-mail me directly at ryan.dunfee@tetongravity.com if you have feedback in the future.

And while people may feel strongly about what actions may or may not have been taken by the party, without further information it's only speculation as to how the group skied the terrain and what mistakes they may or may not have made, and by and large we don't feel it's appropriate to editorialize on what should have happened.

[pesto]

Not routinely, that I know of. I have seen them bomb areas outside the gates in BSB.

AFAIK the whole area skiers left of champagne glades and all the way around earls, although out of bounds, is, actually, inside of Vail's permit area.

It's been a long time since I was back there but I remember there was a patrol toboggon stashed in that area as well as markers on the trees numbering avalanche paths. That may no longer be the case.

[Shrubs]

FWIW for context sake, I was out there on Saturday. There were maybe half a dozen newer tracks on various lines in Old Man's, including one going into and out of a small pocket release of newer storm snow, coming out of the lower cliff band. We didn't see anyone actively skiing it for the few minutes we were ogling, and I was glad for that, but it goes to show that people get away with skiing the lines with big consequences all the time. The starting zones looked loaded up then, and surface hoar had started feathering up pretty good on the snow surface. We ended up skiing a run in Mushroom, which was the plan to begin with. Sunday was a heinous weather day with -50 windchill on 60 mph gusts and about 6" of talcum powder snow falling. BSB closed around 1pm because of wind. Very few people were on the mountain and I doubt more than a couple of people would have made it to the top of Benchmark. Monday barely warmed up, still windy, but was clear. Tuesday was a nice weather day. Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if people are skiing very near this most recent slide right now. I've seen it before. Humans have crappy memories and are awful at making good decisions in high consequence / low probability risk situations. That’s kind of the crux of the problem.

Make no mistake; the entire area outside of the Benchmark gate is dead serious, including the vast majority of Mushroom. People have gotten caught in slides back there almost every season in memory. The amount of skiable terrain out that gate is HUGE. Easily a 1000 acres or more. On top of that, it's a serious maze, the safest skiing isn't obvious and often bracketed by avalanche paths, peppered with cliffs and full of terrain traps. I've been skiing back there fairly frequently for the better part of 10 years and I wouldn't pretend to have a handle on it. I barely know any of the names. I would say there are only a small handful of skiers who do know it well.

As Lindahl states and the last few slides have indicated, there are almost no "safe zones" or safe lines in that area of EV. Turn right instead of left, or turn too wide out of the "safer" lines and you are in the middle of a huge slide path. Also, as Lindahl implies, the days when the conditions come together for "safer" skiing many of these EV bowls are few in any given season, usually March/April. Also, I totally agree that digging a pit is kind of out of the question in that area, unless you were roped in, and even that would be a high-risk activity. IMHO, if you are digging pits to make the call on whether to ski a line in EV or not, you should probably reevaluate your terrain selection.

Rumour has it that Vail agreed to leave EV undeveloped in exchange for BSB being included in their permit area. I highly doubt Vail has any plans at all to expand into that area. Pesto is right about OB / inside permit area part with outer Earl’s. Although below treeline, the cliffs and Dog and Mama’s Bowls slide semi-regularly. They put in a new gate and removed some of the items that would make that area seem like part of the resort after a handful of Wallys dropped the wrong way and ended up in Lime Creek for the night. Also, the resort wasn’t really set up “next to extremely dangerous terrain.” It expanded right up into it. The next expansion will be into West Game creek (minturn mile bowl), who knows when.

[Jethro]

A resort 'Operator' can't perform control work on an area that is not within their permit area. This type of work would be against a long standing agreement with the USFS.

In addition, even if they were inclined to do that work, they would have to make absolutely sure no one was below them. That means closing access to forest service land outside of the ski area. Not popular. They only control inbounds. You are on your own when you leave the gates.

[meatspicy]

are there any details about the incident yet, i.e. weather conditions, group dynamics, the exact terrain selection/where it was triggered from, circumstances that led to 4 people being caught?

[Crampedon]

AFAIK the whole area skiers left of champagne glades and all the way around earls, although out of bounds, is, actually, inside of Vail's permit area.

It's been a long time since I was back there but I remember there was a patrol toboggan stashed in that area as well as markers on the trees numbering avalanche paths. That may no longer be the case.

I understand, maybe incorrectly, that the bushwhacker area et all was once long ago inbounds, albeit briefly, and now gated roped and signed.
Toboggan was their last winter as well as dots on trees.

Old guard enlighten at will.


-Meatspicy, so far CAIC's report is basic, no accident descriptions yet. They were on site yesterday and will likely do a detailed report in time.

http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ac...rep&acc_id=518