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  1. #76
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    thanks for sharing SM- glad you're basically ok. Look forward to a good and frank analysis, may well help someone else not end up looking down at a similar snow cloud.
    Something about the wrinkle in your forehead tells me there's a fit about to get thrown
    And I never hear a single word you say when you tell me not to have my fun
    It's the same old shit that I ain't gonna take off anyone.
    and I never had a shortage of people tryin' to warn me about the dangers I pose to myself.

    Patterson Hood of the DBT's

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio View Post
    I think we are all on the same page here - we shouldn't have been on that slope.

    But this incident changed my opinion on airbags. Before this incident, my opinion on airbags was similar to totaliboard - gear is not a substitute for good partners and sound decision making. I used to joke that If I had $1000 to spend on an airbag, and haven't done my AIARE1 ever, or haven't retaken it in a long time that I'd spend the money on my refresher and my partner's, and then spend the rest of the $500 on beer. The idea is not to get onto a slope that is called out as suspect unless you are willing to pay the ultimate price.

    But those were my thoughts before I got caught in all the same traps that we've read about. That was before I considered just how easy it is to get baited ... It's one thing to read about human factors, Tunnel Creek and nod your head about all of those factors - large group that is way too stoked and way too complacent with the terrain. But what did Casimiro just write about the rat standing above a maze, pointing his finger at the other rat inside and saying "you idiot!" The trap is a trap, because the dangers are hidden behind walls and around corners - hidden behind the cloud of human factors such as trust, complacency, deferral and excitement. The difficulty of sound decision making under a cloud of human factors is further compounded by sidecountry gates that magically transport you from the stoke of the tramdock to the danger zone of a minefield in minutes, while giving you no time to change mental gears that you are no longer in a safe area and that you need to work through your standard protocols to stay alive.

    We shouldn't have been there, no. But we ended up there, and the next day Oceanman and I sat down with Mike's parents and talked about their son's last day in this world, and whether or not we thought an airbag might have saved his life. The information we got from the doctor on the scene and the initial coroner's finding suggests that an airbag would have greatly increased the likelihood of survival in this specific situation.

    It's a difficult situation to reconcile. You never want to pay for your mistakes when the price is ultimate. But you also don't realize just how easy it is to make those mistakes, until that day that your luck runs out and you are staring at a 200' wide cloud of snow that just carried your buddy off the face of the planet.

    I have a lot more thoughts to share on this incident ... have been doing a lot of thinking, through the grieving, sleepless nights and difficult days. I've been staying off the message boards and just lying low until I could get my head together. Trying to write something that would be worth sharing to the greater community in capturing the aftermath of it all.

    But it's easier to just "come out" right now. I've taken stoke from this TGR community, learned a lot, met great friends, shared a lot of stoke myself, and now I just want to say to everyone that - yeah, it's really fucking easy to make mistakes that will cost people their lives.

    Please wait for the details, and only trust information you get from Bridger Teton Avalanche Center or from a case study that we are working to put together. I will say that Angus did a great job on the article, and I've been told that he's seen this thing happen from all sides and had to see the aftermath of such deadly incidents. Until the more detailed writeups come out, I'll hope to share my own personal perspective that captures the emotional aftermath of such tragedy.

    Finally, just a huge thanks to the Jackson community. SAR, guides, patrol, resort management, locals, BT avy center, everyone. Everyone has been so understanding and supportive, and a lot of folks risked their lives during the rescue. I can't ever forget that.
    sorry my friend. my only ski partner i ever had paid the same price. your a good man to sit and meet with his folks, that part was very difficult, i hope it helped.
    bobby
    .

  3. #78
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    Schralph and ocean - Sorry for the loss, I can't imagine to pretend I understand what it's like to go through that.

    I don't typically post in these sort of threads, but wanted to say thanks for the sharing and writeups and glad the TGR community is here for these things when they unfortunately do happen.

    Prayers for your friend Mike.

  4. #79
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    Schralph and OceanMan thanks for sharing, it takes more than just balls to open up.

    Sent from my LG-D800

  5. #80
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    Both accounts are very well written and will help those willing to learn. Thank you and we look forward to more in time. As I mentioned offline, heartfelt condolences to you guys, family and other friends. Mike will be missed. I think you're doing the right things for yourselves (keep it up, keep getting help as needed) and the community is already starting to benefit. You can almost feel the positive vibes coming off this forum. Glad you guys are safe.
    "Kids today, all they talk about is big air. I say, stay on the mountain, that's where the action is. If you want big air, pull my finger." ~Smooth Johnson~

  6. #81
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    Love ya Alex and everybody who has learned something from the incident.

    You can look at all the data one can gather from classes or books but the hardest obstacles lie within you and your groups heads and only experience and self-awareness can be your guide.

    I have also changed my lingo/mentality with "side country" which I will now refer to as "sketch country". If you can't marinate in or observe if you will, in a slope your hoping to ski, or one similar, you have no evidence to make the call whether to ski or back off. I know some "sketch country" routes out there give you the chance to do these test and intuition touchy/feely type of analysis but pucker and almost any line off Cody peak does not.

    +++vibes+++ to everybody who has contributed to this thread. Much love
    to ski another day

  7. #82
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    Jackson and Cody Peak give new meaning to the term "sidecountry." These links discuss if the term is appropriate or not.

    http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-defense-sidecountry
    http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-...w-lets-bury-it
    We're not happy 'til you're not happy.

  8. #83
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    It's not immoral to push your luck, but at least be honest with yourself. Most people are smart enough to know when they're doing something dangerous. Skiing a line like Pucker Face is dangerous even if avalanche danger is zero. What are the possible consequences of a fall? Death? Paralysis? Numerous broken bones, huge medical bills, and a long recovery?

    I've gotten a way with a lot of stuff over the years ( skiing and otherwise ) just because I was lucky. I think there is a lot of internal dishonesty about risk, and I'm perfectly happy to put myself first in that line. Who else has gotten away with doing stupid stuff over the years and what did you do about it? ( If anything. )

  9. #84
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    Doing stupid stuff = taking more risk than you want to, usually by a far margin.

    Doing stupid stuff is pretty relative. For example, some people think flying a wingsuit is pretty stupid, but others obviously don't. Judging someone's actions through your risk tolerance glasses and calling it stupid, is, well, stupid...

    A lot of people in this world would probably call what we do... stupid.

    I would call the video in the Big Air Dave thread pretty stupid, though entertaining.

  10. #85
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    Vibes to SM and OM and all involved.

    Incident report from BTAC: http://www.jhavalanche.org/media/eve...ker%20face.pdf

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by CookieMonster View Post
    It's not immoral to push your luck, but at least be honest with yourself. Most people are smart enough to know when they're doing something dangerous. Skiing a line like Pucker Face is dangerous even if avalanche danger is zero. What are the possible consequences of a fall? Death? Paralysis? Numerous broken bones, huge medical bills, and a long recovery?
    CookieMonster, this is a fair point and for me it touches upon an interesting personal struggle in the aftermath of the accident. I have been nearly injured or killed by various hazards in the mountains, such as lighting strikes and rockfall. I accept that these are real risks that come with the terrain and that, while there are some observable/predictable weather factors that exacerbate or attenuate these events, there isn't much I can depend on besides vigilance and luck to keep me safe from these hazards once I'm on a big mountain.

    Avalanches feel like a different type of hazard to me - I think because there is so much emphasis placed on avalanche education and so much expectation from the armchair community of "getting it right" that there is almost no room to learn from mistakes or near-misses. And from this different classification of hazard, I feel guilt and shame for making mistakes with regard to the avalanche hazard. I feel guilty and shameful for the exceptional cost of this lesson in the mountains. This accident was of course unintentional, and the result of a series of cascading events that can happen when you put 6 people with certain backgrounds in a certain situation and setting; in other words, a probable, but not determinable outcome of the randomness of the world. But us guilty ones still feel the shame that this "was not supposed to happen."

    Mike asked the group, right before he dropped in: "Are you comfortable with this?"

    And when I stared down the face, and thought about my answer, I thought about the steepness, the terrain hazards, the quality of the snow, and my riding ability - the dangers Cookie Monster talked about that have nothing to do with avalanches - and I completely turned off the part of my brain that thinks about avalanches. In retrospect, I cannot even fathom this response, especially in light of skeptical comments that I made immediately after our cornice cut produced no results. Maybe I thought he asked "are you comfortable skiing this? Maybe because the question was directed to the entire group, and not to me specifically? Maybe because I was trying to support the direction of the group, even though there was no one leading it? Maybe because we wanted to collectively believe that this thing was totally acceptable and without cost?

    The group dynamics of the situation were incredible. I'm not yet ready to talk about that in depth, mostly because we are still working on getting the details and testimonials organized and also because we haven't sifted through and reviewed (with the support of industry professionals) the heterogeneous mix of if-thens, shoulda/coulda/wouldas and other breakdowns in standard protocols - to really make sure that we've distilled down to the root causes of decision making that led us toward the top of that face.

    Without details, I can only say that the incident, in retrospect, feels eerily similar to Tunnel Creek 2012.
    Megan Michelson's article does a decent job to directly address the group dynamics and other human factors as root causes to the incident:
    http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor....html?page=all
    But if you want the long version again, here is the John Branch project that won the pullitzer:
    http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/snow-fall


    Quote Originally Posted by Hey Diddle Diddle View Post
    Those two blogs were posted in the Spring 2013 The Avalanche Review, along with other opinion pieces about sidecountry. The discussion will likely continue into future TAR issues.

    If there is one thing the incident has spoiled my taste for, it is the use of sidecountry access gates. I certainly won't be able to use any gates until the melt-freeze starts; in this state of mind I'm not certain that I can ever trust myself to use access gates again.

    I personally don't care for the movement to eliminate usage of the word because I really do believe sidecountry to be more dangerous than ground-up touring. I feel like the culture of complacency, familiarity with terrain, ease of access, and the radically different frame of mind needed to approach the terrain inbounds and out of bounds makes it much harder to make good decisions from outside of the gates than up from a trailhead. Even just the time and physical effort that it takes to approach a line from the ground-up has a tempering effect on "stoke" and group dynamics. It's a lot harder to be overly stoked when your asthmatic lungs are redlining and you've still got several hundred, or thousand, feet of vert to climb.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hey Diddle Diddle View Post
    Jackson and Cody Peak give new meaning to the term "sidecountry."
    Diddle, can you elaborate on this? Setting aside my experiences in California - most resorts I have been to with sidecountry access gates develop a culture of locals who treat the area as an extension of the resort and become very complacent. Maybe not the crusty old locals who know every slide path, but a fairly large quantity of users. Mt. Baker is probably the worst I have ever seen, in terms of complete disrespect - but the powder fever has translated directly to out-of-bounds areas and the social proof can make it harder to make good decisions. Oceanman mentioned that we talked to guides on the hike up the ridgeline, but I don't think he mentioned the father and son (young adolescent?) we also encountered on the hike.

    Chabot et al presented a paper for ISSW 2010 on the Saddle Peak slide at Bridger Bowl that does a fantastic job talking about the culture of sidecountry access.


    This is where the guilt of "getting baited" hurts even more; I've read about Saddle Peak 2010, and I've read about Tunnel Creek. I have passed along the articles when mentoring others about sidecountry and complacency. And because I wanted to ski with my friend Mike and learn a new resort area, I turned off the parts of my brain that had studied those concepts; I wasn't about to go start an avalanche, I was going to go ski something with Mike and friends.

    edit:
    Quick clarifying note on my previous post: an airbag would not have changed the fact that we made mistakes; only the price of the lesson.
    Last edited by SchralphMacchio; 01-06-2014 at 11:39 PM.
    _______________________________________________
    "Strapping myself to a sitski built with 30lb of metal and fibreglass then trying to water ski in it sounds like a stupid idea to me.

    I'll be there."
    ... Andy Campbell

  12. #87
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    I have absolutely no desire to bust the balls of anyone involved in this incident. I'd like to suggest though, that although the coroners report suggests that in this particular case an airbag may have saved the life of your friend, in 99/100 cases it surely would not save the life of anyone carried full path in an avalanche on that terrain. That's just so incredibly gnarly with all the snow stripped off it, it's got to be close to the the textbook definition of an unsurvivable avalanche regardless of the circumstances.

    Props to everyone involved for pulling off a search and extrication in terrain that serious in the time that you did, that's genuinely incredible work.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio View Post
    Mike asked the group, right before he dropped in: "Are you comfortable with this?"

    And when I stared down the face, and thought about my answer, I thought about the steepness, the terrain hazards, the quality of the snow, and my riding ability - the dangers Cookie Monster talked about that have nothing to do with avalanches - and I completely turned off the part of my brain that thinks about avalanches. In retrospect, I cannot even fathom this response, especially in light of skeptical comments that I made immediately after our cornice cut produced no results. Maybe I thought he asked "are you comfortable skiing this? Maybe because the question was directed to the entire group, and not to me specifically? Maybe because I was trying to support the direction of the group, even though there was no one leading it? Maybe because we wanted to collectively believe that this thing was totally acceptable and without cost?

    The group dynamics of the situation were incredible. I'm not yet ready to talk about that in depth, mostly because we are still working on getting the details and testimonials organized and also because we haven't sifted through and reviewed (with the support of industry professionals) the heterogeneous mix of if-thens, shoulda/coulda/wouldas and other breakdowns in standard protocols - to really make sure that we've distilled down to the root causes of decision making that led us toward the top of that face.
    Again I have to say this has been one of the best threads in terms of honest content I have read here. Thank you.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  14. #89
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    On the topic of sidecountry is backcountry a blog post from Doug at GNFAC...

    http://www.mtavalanche.com/blog/sidecountry-backcountry

  15. #90
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    Schralph, holy shit. I don't know how I didn't connect the dots until now. Glad you're ok, sorry for you're loss and that we couldn't connect for a beer. The ski world is way too small. Be well man.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio View Post
    If there is one thing the incident has spoiled my taste for, it is the use of sidecountry access gates. I certainly won't be able to use any gates until the melt-freeze starts; in this state of mind I'm not certain that I can ever trust myself to use access gates again.

    I personally don't care for the movement to eliminate usage of the word because I really do believe sidecountry to be more dangerous than ground-up touring. I feel like the culture of complacency, familiarity with terrain, ease of access, and the radically different frame of mind needed to approach the terrain inbounds and out of bounds makes it much harder to make good decisions from outside of the gates than up from a trailhead. Even just the time and physical effort that it takes to approach a line from the ground-up has a tempering effect on "stoke" and group dynamics. It's a lot harder to be overly stoked when your asthmatic lungs are redlining and you've still got several hundred, or thousand, feet of vert to climb.

    First, I'd like to say I'm sorry for your loss and commend your willingness to openly do a postmortem. In the past, I was rather disturbed that we couldn't seem to do this maturely on TGR. Perhaps its the numbing reality that 48 people have died in slides in Wyoming in just the last 14 years. I would point out, though, that sad tally includes at least three slide victims for whom "summit fever" and changing conditions during ascent may have played a key role in the fatality. I knew one of the guys involved. Rode many a lift with him and partied down with him plenty. He was no rookie. So, there are cases where the time and physical effort to approach a line INCREASES commitment and makes it harder to back off of an ascent.
    Last edited by neckdeep; 01-07-2014 at 12:51 PM.

  17. #92
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    thanks for the further comments SM. the group dynamic is obviously the hardest part to understand so the feedback from OM and you is invaluable for armchair QBs like us trying to figure out how to avoid making the same mistakes

    i have one question that has been bothering me, and forgive me if it is inflammatory. in the initial JH news and guide article OM describes himself as an experienced backcountry traveler who knew how to handle BC terrain choices. he faults the fact that he was unfamiliar with cody peak, and did not realize pucker face was so dangerous. i cannot fathom how anyone experienced in the backcountry could stand a top pucker face and not realize the increased danger level of that terrain. if one cant recognize the obvious danger of that terrain, what other poor choices are they making in the BC?

    i do not mean to indict/insult your BC knowledge Oceanman, but maybe we all need to be more real about what we really KNOW when it comes to backcountry travel and avalanche risk management.

  18. #93
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    Given that it has been stated already that the decision to ski it was a mistake, and the fact that experienced people sometimes make mental mistakes, isn't the answer to this question really obvious? Almost like the sort of mental error that happens when we're trying to learn and we ask oversimplifying questions that discourage exploration of the meaningful nuances of the situation, maybe. Sorry if that seems snarky, I'm really just hoping this thread stays on the track it's been on, because it's a delicate subject that OM and SM have been handling very well IMHO.

  19. #94
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  20. #95
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    handling it like men.
    b
    .

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Given that it has been stated already that the decision to ski it was a mistake, and the fact that experienced people sometimes make mental mistakes, isn't the answer to this question really obvious? Almost like the sort of mental error that happens when we're trying to learn and we ask oversimplifying questions that discourage exploration of the meaningful nuances of the situation, maybe. Sorry if that seems snarky, I'm really just hoping this thread stays on the track it's been on, because it's a delicate subject that OM and SM have been handling very well IMHO.
    fair enough, i see your point, and i definitely dont want to sidetrack this thread either. i guess what im getting at is that i've definitely used my "knowledge" to justify lines in the past. in reality i could've made a big mistake and missed a trigger point by a foot or two, and walked away confident that I had made a good informed decision. i guess it comes back to what someone said in the beginning of this thread about "thinking like an amateur." i could've worded that last post better, but this is the concept im trying to get at

  22. #97
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    Cody Peak gives a new meaning to the term "sidecountry" for me because it is so much bigger and steeper than what we access from gates here in Utah. I realize it looks so gnarly because the slide stripped the snow from the face exposing the rocks. Big, steep, rotten, loaded, no skier compaction with a cliff band thrown in helps me to understand how it earned the name "Pucker Face." This is "sidecountry" by definition because it is easily accessed by a gate from a ski area but it is vastly different from the sidecountry the rest of us ski.

    I ski Canyons in Utah and there are most certainly locals who treat the sidecountry as an extension of the resort and ski open dangerous slopes in the middle of storms. There are also endless freeriders and tourists doing the same. Skier compaction is the big reason why there are not more tragedies here. Pucker Face is so intimidating I don't see it getting much compaction even in a good year.

    I do not put "maritime climate" sidecountry, such as Tunnel Creek in the same category. They do not often experience our depth hoar and persistent slab issues. Their issue was lots of snow, wind, a steep starting zone and picking a mid-slope meeting place that was not out of danger. Safety was just a few feet away.

    The movement to eliminate the term sidecountry seems silly. Some avalanche professionals who helped popularize the term seem to want to assuage their collective guilt through semantics.

    A large percentage of avalanche deaths happen with skins on. I don't think hiking everything from the ground-up is the answer. Route finding in challenging terrain is an art and even the pros screw it up from time to time.

    I believe an airbag might have saved Mike. I do not carry an airbag. My logic is "would I ski this if I was alone, no transceiver, no avalung, no airbag." I was a charger when I was younger and am much more risk averse now. When conditions are stable I am a charger again. I am at peace with the fact I may not ski my favorite runs this season. Now if I ski something I shouldn't my feeling is not elation for the great run but anger with myself for letting my animal side overrule my common sense.

    Thank you for your frank analysis and giving us the opportunity to re-think our assumptions.
    Vibes to all involved.
    We're not happy 'til you're not happy.

  23. #98
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    Meatspicy, I complete understand where you are coming from with pucker being so obviously unsupported, convexed and made up of sketchy rock bands.

    Unfortunately those ^ observations and understandings were blinded by what I knew most about pucker and that was that every time I looked at it from the tram or inbounds, I saw a ton of skier traffic.

    Had I done my homework and not let my emotions come to play, I would have never considered the line. I love checking out terrain and mentally surfing it, looking at strong points (ridges, anchors and spots where deeper snowpack exist) and week points.

    All these observations and tools were left behind at my house that morning when I walked out the door with the wrong mentality. We all make mistakes and let the fog cloud our vision... Unfortunately this one cost us a life
    to ski another day

  24. #99
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    Vibes to the group out in east vail today. Another large group out the gates on an unsupported, high consequence line.
    to ski another day

  25. #100
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    Thank you SM and OM for your openness and honesty. So sorry for your loss.

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