What style of crampon for ski mountaineering?

[meatspicy]

the metal toe lug style for hard sole boots, or the strap style that fits both hard/soft sole boots?

i will be using these 3-4 times a year in GTNP and the winds for ski mountaineering missions, and i dont really have any interest in alpine climbing. are there performace benefits to the hard sole style crampon, or should i opt for the versatility of the hybrid style?

[meatspicy]

also, if you could just recommend a particular BD crampon, that would be great

[GeezerSteve]

Depends on what kind of climbing you anticipate, i.e., frontpointing or not.

Full straps vs. hybrid vs. wire-toe-bail is mostly a matter of what fits your boots. Some manufacturers make basically the same crampon strap and/or hybrid and/or step-in. Most wire-toe-bail 'pons fit AT boots.

If you are looking for a 'pon for general mountaineering and no/seldom frontpointing, you might start bylooking at the Camp XLC 390.

also, if you could just recommend a particular BD crampon, that would be great

BD Neve Pro fits most AT boots well, good general mountaineering non-technical 'pon. I have a pair in good shape for sale.

[Meadow Skipper]

Greatly prefer step-ins/wire toe bail (BD Pro) over straps - much easier on/off. Steel (BD Sabretooths) where rock may be an issue, aluminum (BD Neve) for snow slogging.

[adrenalated]

Metal bail crampons are stiffer, climb better, and are more secure on the boot. If your boot will accept full metal bail style crampons (and most if not all ski boots will) then go that route.

For BD crampons, go Neve Pro for snow only, non-technical use. They are light and climb reasonably well. They are aluminum and you will trash them quickly if you end up walking on any rock at all. If you want more durability, or foresee yourself climbing steeper, harder snow, mixed rock, or even some ice, the Sabretooth Pro is a great way to go, but you will pay a weight penalty. I own both and use the Neve's most of the time that I climb snow to ski.

[meatspicy]

mostly for steep couloirs with snow/ice. i dont anticipate too much rock, but i guess it would be nice to have one that could do it all

sabretooth over the neve?

[meatspicy]

missions for this winter are the skillet, ellingwood, and buck, and some of the coolies on teewinot

[GeezerSteve]

If you can ski down it, Al alloy 'pons will get you up it just fine. Despite the common fearmongering, good Al alloy 'pons do not explode when they touch rock and are plenty tough for 99% of general mountaineering. I've got 200+ days on my Stubai SLs, most of those days walking some on rock with my fat butt and a full traverse pack, and I'll likely be using those 'pons for the rest of my life. Our 3 pairs of steel 'pons have stayed in our gear room since I stopped doing routes that required extended frontpointing years ago.

If you plan to do technical routes frontpointing up ice (water or white) like Dane1 does, get steel (and get some gear advice somewhere other than TGR). Don't plan on skiing down those lines.

[Dry]

Winter routes?...get steel. Don't dick with aluminum. They don't work on actual ice.

Depends on the boot. For less technical crampons/boots stick with carbon steel. Stainlesss still has durability/reliability issues.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2013...-crampons.html

More crampons are sold world wide with hybrid bindings tha anything else.

My suggestion is find the boot you want to use and buy a crampon with a full technical, clip on binding (not a hybrid) that actual fits your boots.

Here is a tiny bit of that conversaion.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2011...on-design.html

[meatspicy]

i wont be climbing anything vertical, and i plan on being on snow for the most part. icy couloir crux's at most.

im leaning towards the neve since its so much lighter and they seem to cover 95% of the ascents im looking to do this winter/spring.

big steve, thanks for the offer, but im getting powerhooked by BD this year, so im gonna grab some new ones

[Dry]

I wont be climbing anything vertical, and i plan on being on snow for the most part. icy couloir crux's at most.

Ya my point wasn't about climbing vertical ice. Aluminum crampons will climb anything up to actual water ice. The kinda shit you find in an icy coulior's crux mid winter. Something you might well ski down but will have the likelihood of being stopped in your tracks going up if it is very long or very hard, as in concrete hard it doens't have to be steep, unless you are willing to take a tumble back to the snow below.

Aluminum is a spring summer crampon IMO or where I don't care about finishing an objective. Steel or steel inserts the rest of the year and I am serious about the objective. Weight don't mean chit if you fail.

Weight of a pair of steel crampons compared to aluminum is signifigant. But if the tool doesn't work as required...it is worthless no matter how good the bro deal was.

[adrenalated]

I have frontpointed up hard, steep snow with my Neve's a couple times that I felt totally confident skiing down on where I wished I was wearing my Sabretooth's instead. It's just easier to kick a secure step the first time with the more aggressive, steel crampon. That said, the Neve still got me up it safely, it's just a bit more tenuous. As I said, I do carry the Neve most of the time, but I do like to have the steel crampons in the stable.

Note that all of my ski mountaineering work has been in Colorado between April and July. I don't really know how the snow conditions compare to the Tetons for this sort of thing.

[Dry]

if you could just recommend a particular BD crampon, that would be great

Missed this..

Fook it, just get the Neve...for 3 or 4 times a year, good enough.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Get step-ins that fit your AT boots. Aluminum for snow. Steel if you expect anything else. Aluminum sure feel nice in the pack, and they're fine if all you're doing is booting hard spring snow. But even for an unambitious, relatively unskilled climber like me, longer steel crampons are clearly far more capable. One area where this is clear is clear to me is when walking on snow or slush covered ice or rock. With snow compressed under a boot, shorter points may not consistently reach the solid surface below. This makes every step more work. I decide which to bring like this: If I might need crampons to walk up steep snow, and I'll be covering a lot of ground, I take aluminum; If I know I will need crampons, or it's a day I'm not concerned about weight or speed, I will take steel. That said, I take aluminum more often than steel.

Lighter, inexpensive steel crampons (Camp Stalker):

http://acmeclimbing.com/campstalkera...FclQOgodHX0AAg

They're not for climbing vertical ice, but they'll be durable and get you through the walking-up-hill-on-snow-and-occasional-ice-or-rock-while-trying-not-to-fall that is most ski mountaineering.

Camp Aluminum crampons fit AT boots well and are extremely light. They weigh about 30% less than Neve Pros.

For more aggressive steel that will get you anywhere, I'd go Grivel unless you can test or confirm Petzl fit on your boots. I've heard less issues with fit with AT boots for Grivel. Either will be great if they fit. I don't really understand the issues with failures of BD stainless, but I've seen the pictures and it's enough to keep me away.

[Mantana1]

On a slight tangent, any comparison between a BD neve and an even lighter Aluminum 'pon like a Camp Tour 350 or even Race 290? Is there going to be an even bigger tradeoff in performance for an ultra-light Aluminum crampon?

FYI - Im looking for a lighter crampon for ski mountaineering than my current Cyborgs (which I currently use for water ice, ski mo, and general mountaineering too)

[rod9301]

I have the race 290s
And they are great.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using TGR Forums

[Dry]

Is there going to be an even bigger tradeoff in performance for an ultra-light Aluminum crampon?

Camp 350, 390, XLC and Tour Nano (lwt ss steel) are all exceptionally good 3 season crampons for ski mountaineering. Used in the right terrain I don't see any trade off. CAMP in many ways owns that market.

I have both Camp and BD and find the Camp aluminuim more durable and the bindings a better fit on my Dynafit boots. Grivel is right there on fit. The Grivel Haute Route crampon is a nice combo if steel and aluminum only lacking full size front points. If I was forced ot own one pair of skimo crampons and wasn;t doing technical ice, the Grivel Haute Route would be my choice. For a technical crampon on skimo boots hard to beat the fit of a Grivel G20 or 22. Nothing else in the same game as Grivel for a technical crampon fit on ski boots IMO. Everything else I have tried is a compromise.

I actually climb technical ground (in my mtn boots) with Petzl generally. But I own and on occasion use crampons from four of the major suppliers, including Camp, BD, Petzl and Grivel.

[Kevo]

I own both Hybrid and step in crampons. The hybrids that I have (Some kind of 12 point steel Petzl) are actually really awesome. They are lighter than my BD cyborgs and climb ice just as well. They also work on every boot I have and with over boots. Horizontal front points do climb ice really well, you just can't replace them if you break one. IMO, they are better on snow as well.

I find myself grabbing the hybrids more often than my step in cyborgs for pretty much everything these days. Mixed climbing is just about the only application where I'd want the beefier cyborgs.

They also work with my summer boots which do not have a toe welt for step in crampons.

If I were in your position (presumably with a BD pro deal) I'd get the hybrid version of BD sabertooths. They are the most versatile for all kinds of boots you may amass in a quiver, including ski boots, ice boots, summer mountaineering boots and high altitude overboots.

If you are dead set on step ins after the other replies, still get the sabertooths, but with the step in attachment system.

IME, full strap on crampons without a heel lever are a pain in the ass.

[Dry]

A rather consistant problem with BD stainless since introduction.

[superdigg]

Must say I do like my Grivel Haute Route's for this.

[icelanticskier]

big fan of the BD neve pro. just don't walk on rock. they are very light for what they are capable of. most of our terrain is upper 30's to 50 with some short pitches to mid 50's on hard/very hard snow under chalk, or not, and the neve's have been great.

rog

[LC]

Camp 390 with wire bails. Don't overthink things.

[GeezerSteve]

Agree with Dane re the Neve Pro performing higher than its ostensible 10-point walking 'pon class.

Stainless steel seems like a really stupid material for crampons. ETA: Dane, I saw your piece re SS 'pons. Good stuff, and wholly agree that cro-mo is an obvious choice for steel crampons. Yvon C figured that out. But I don't know many knifes made from cro-mo cuz it can't be heat treated as hard as spring, tool or HC steel. (I made a DIY bowie from 4130 stock cuz it was lying around the shop; heat treated to c. 54 Rc, great chopper, but doesn't hold an edge very well.) Most non-SS knives are made from spring steel (e.g., 5160), tool steel (e.g., A2) or other high carbon steel (e.g., 1095). You already know that.

[gregL]

Must say I do like my Grivel Haute Route's for this.

Just got a pair - makes sense to have a lightweight steel front and alu back for those who almost never walk downhill . . .

[Mantana1]

I have both Camp and BD and find the Camp aluminuim more durable and the bindings a better fit on my Dynafit boots.

To expand on this, can you comment specifically on a Camp Tour 350 on a TLT5?