MLB 2014

[stfu&gbtw]

Oh really. Just because he was in a fairly small market on a sucky team and didn't get caught? Please. Dude is another roid giant. I mean, I'll trust a pitcher like Maddox or Glavine, but, Thomas is one lucky man.

lol... as though Balco invented fat guys. Remember when Frank Thomas was that skinny kid slapping singles and stealing 40 bases a season? Yeah, me neither...

Here's some light reading for you, moron.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcedel...ll-since-1995/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...itchell_Report

[stfu&gbtw]

Jack Morris=Ray Guy. Stupid fawking writers.
Biggio was robbed. Maybe next time. PED era will affect even those not associated with the shit. CB was a stud, put up tremendous numbers, and was above suspicion. Eventually they are going to have to look past the roid scandal.

Just saw Biggio got 74.8%. Damn! A little surprised that Maddux didn't beat out Tom Seaver for highest all time vote... With all the steroid bs, you'd think the writers would have been falling all over themselves to vote for him. 2.8% = 16 votes... They should publish the voting...

Benny "The Tool" Profane here is doing a great job of proving your point about everyone being tainted by PEDs.

[Benny Profane]

Ok, (a) If you're going to start a thread, any thread, learn to debate. Something beyond moron and idiot and nothing else. Bring something, counselor.

(b) You have to be incredibly naive to think that any player, any player, of that era, especially a large slugger, was not at least exposed to the locker room drug trade, and sure was tempted when he passed the 30s threshold. Time after time we have seen players deny and lie and profess innocence until the absolute end. Palmeiro under oath lying out loud, wagging his finger. ARod looking like a deer in the headlights all the time. Ryan Braun, fighting off an entire first try until they finally got him. Christ, there's hundreds more. Selig just threw some bread out on the water over the years to appease the media. He has been all about reviving baseball after the strike and competing with America's even worse drug addled sport, the NFL.
I don't think any slugger from that period deserves the Hall. I think it's that bad.

[JimmyCarter]

http://deadspin.com/revealed-the-hal...lot-1496558341

[Hugh Conway]

So what were the fucking writers doing during the PED era when the players were, you know, doing PEDs? Sucking the cocks of the guys they are now shitting on. Assholes.

[stfu&gbtw]

Ok, (a) If you're going to start a thread, any thread, learn to debate. Something beyond moron and idiot and nothing else. Bring something, counselor.

(b) You have to be incredibly naive to think that any player, any player, of that era, especially a large slugger, was not at least exposed to the locker room drug trade, and sure was tempted when he passed the 30s threshold. Time after time we have seen players deny and lie and profess innocence until the absolute end. Palmeiro under oath lying out loud, wagging his finger. ARod looking like a deer in the headlights all the time. Ryan Braun, fighting off an entire first try until they finally got him. Christ, there's hundreds more. Selig just through some bread out on the water over the years to appease the media. He has been all about reviving baseball after the strike and competing with America's even worse drug addled sport, the NFL.
I don't think any slugger from that period deserves the Hall. I think it's that bad.

I didn't just call you a moron.. I also posted links to information, of which, you have clearly chosen not to avail yourself.

It's been a while since you lowered the bar on what sort of garbage I expect to read when I see your account at the top of a post, but man, today is a doozy...

[stfu&gbtw]

So what were the fucking writers doing during the PED era when the players were, you know, doing PEDs? Sucking the cocks of the guys they are now shitting on. Assholes.

MLB too... all these guys who "disgraced" the game were the reason people started watching again after the work stoppages.. And when MLB felt they'd wrung the shit out of that idea, they moved on to the "controversy" of prosecuting the guys who saved their jobs. Fucking cock-suckers, the lot of them.

But as much as I hate the hypocrisy of MLB and the MLBBWA, what I really hate is Clemens and Bonds - guys who were so incredibly talented and decided to act like such impossible assholes about it. I could see giving a guy like Pettitte a pass after a while, but guys like Clemens and Bonds and Palmeiro... Fuck 'em.

[Benny Profane]

What, a Forbes article? Really. OK, of course he would say something like that. BECAUSE THEY WEREN"T TESTING! What's the downside? Nothing. What's the upside? Makes him look clean. You fucking fell for it.

And a wikipedia list of the guys who were unlucky enough to get caught?

You can do better than that. Type.

[Brock Landers]

I like the three elected. Thomas was a 2 time MVP, 500 HR, and passes the sniff test- one of the few best players in the league for at least a few years. Not sure how Clemens, Bonds, Piazza wont eventually get in. Piazza hasnt even been seriously accused. Clemens and Bonds are all timers. Im not going to try and weed out users from non users, who fucking knows anyway (besides Benny, who knows everyone was on roids). If youre one of the best of a generation, youre in. If youre very good, meh...

Biggio...is this the hall of very good for a long time? He had 5 decent seasons in the late 90s, never a serious contender for MVP, and couldnt even consistently win the Silver Slugger for second basemen (4 times...not enough for the HOF).

[stfu&gbtw]

What, a Forbes article? Really. OK, of course he would say something like that. BECAUSE THEY WEREN"T TESTING! What's the downside? Nothing. What's the upside? Makes him look clean. You fucking fell for it.

And a wikipedia list of the guys who were unlucky enough to get caught?

You can do better than that. Type.

What is there to argue with? You can't get much cleaner than Thomas. If your stance is that all power hitters from this era are excluded from the HoF (despite the fact that more Pitchers have been found to have used PEDs) then that is your (retarded) opinion. You are certainly entitled to it.

[powpig]

At some point, you just have to put all of the convoluted arguments and discussions aside in favor of the simple eye test metric. Anyone that really knows baseball (either playing, watching or both) can easily see that Bonds and Clemens are no doubt HOF's, McGwire and Sosa are not. Manny Ramirez would be but isn't because of his antics and quitting on his teams, Palmeiro and David Ortiz are fence sitters, though Big Papi may yet be able to distance himself from that era and get in.

Im not going to try and weed out users from non users, who fucking knows anyway (besides Benny, who knows everyone was on roids).

That seems to be kind of where Ken Gurnick was coming from. He cast his ballot and voted for Jack Morris only, refusing to vote for any players from the Steroid Era, "it's an indictment of an era" he said.

Henry Schulman countered that Ken Gurnick was half-right:

"Central to the argument was my refusal to toss out an entire era based on steroid use, or become judge, jury and executioner in deciding who used and who didn’t.

The players we “know” used steroids were revealed in investigations that followed law-enforcement leads. Those investigations were limited to a handful of clinics in random geographic locations because the authorities happened to get tips about them.

That in turn made the Mitchell Report flawed, since his committee did not have the power to force players to testify and had to follow the highway that was paved by those law-enforcement investigations. Ultimately the Mitchell Report went overboard hammering a few teams and players while ignoring many others. The investigation was incomplete.

Players such as Greg Maddux and Frank Thomas could and should be first-ballot Hall of Famers, but to reason that they were clean during a dirty era is 100 percent wrong because you don’t know.

Let me repeat that.

YOU….DON’T….KNOW."

Which brings us to:

So what were the fucking writers doing during the PED era when the players were, you know, doing PEDs? Sucking the cocks of the guys they are now shitting on. Assholes.

Exactly!
All with the blessings of Uncle Bud! As long as the money and adulations were flowing, the comish was perfectly happy turning a blind eye. MLB rakes in the $$$ from the era but punishes those that put the $$ in their pockets and resurrected baseball.

Here's a very good, though pretty long article detailing the history of both steroid use in MLB & how it's been reported, beginning in 1988.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...ng-steroid-era

But as much as I hate the hypocrisy of MLB and the MLBBWA, what I really hate is Clemens and Bonds - guys who were so incredibly talented and decided to act like such impossible assholes about it. I could see giving a guy like Pettitte a pass after a while, but guys like Clemens and Bonds and Palmeiro... Fuck 'em.

Really? You hate the hypocrisy of MLB yet try to justify your own hypocrisy? Pettitte OK but no on Clemens & Bonds? And not even based on their on field performance? The second you make the Hall about personality the whole thing is a fraud. If that is the HOF you want, have at it, but I will call it what it is, a hypocritical joke.

[Brock Landers]

I get where Gurnick is coming from...but Jack Morris played in the steroid era (if Morris is in because he didnt play in the steroid era, Jose Canseco is too) why would he get a vote? Guy was a 1980s Curt Schilling anyway and shouldnt get it. But is the solution to pretend the era never existed?

Pettitte isnt a HOFer with or without Roids.

[stfu&gbtw]

Really? You hate the hypocrisy of MLB yet try to justify your own hypocrisy? Pettitte OK but no on Clemens & Bonds? And not even based on their on field performance? The second you make the Hall about personality the whole thing is a fraud. If that is the HOF you want, have at it, but I will call it what it is, a hypocritical joke.

It's not hypocritical - it's a totally different context. And it also goes back to the point of who did what and when... Pettitte used HGH to recover from an injury in 2002. MLB banned it in 2005. In my book, because he used a tool that was not banned at the time he used it, did not use it to gain an unnatural performance advantage, and did not act like a cocksucker about getting called on it, Pettitte is eligible for a pass. According to multiple sources and the MR, Clemens and Bonds used anabolic steriods, which have never been legal, and they did so to gain unfair advantage, and then they stamped their feet like little children, insisting that their implausible recollection of events should be accepted as fact. Because of that, I would not consider either of them to be eligible for a pass.

[stfu&gbtw]

I get where Gurnick is coming from...but Jack Morris played in the steroid era (if Morris is in because he didnt play in the steroid era, Jose Canseco is too) why would he get a vote? Guy was a 1980s Curt Schilling anyway and shouldnt get it. But is the solution to pretend the era never existed?

Pettitte isnt a HOFer with or without Roids.

You're probably right about Pettitte... He kind of brushes up against eligibility, but isn't quite there, and the HGH will be the final nail in the coffin.

As far as pretending the era didn't exist - I think this is a great opportunity for the writers to commend those players who didn't engage in that sort of behavior. On the one hand you could just accept performance for performance and load up the hall with all these ridiculous stats and always take that with a grain of salt. Or you could find the best players who didn't do those things, understand that their stats might be a little lower than the historical average, since they played against these super human science experiments, and take that with a grain of salt. But whatever approach we decide on, salt will be on the table.

[stfu&gbtw]

Different question:

If you could put one guy in the HoF, strictly on personal preference, who would it be?

That's an easy one for me - #23, Donnie Baseball. I was a kid living in NJ in 85-87 and every summer, we did chores like mad in exchange for Yankee tickets. I wasn't quite aware of the big picture at that time - probably couldn't have named the non starters, and maybe not more than a couple of pitchers.... The whole team and organization existed somewhere in the enormous shadow cast by Don Mattingly (and Mr. S., obviously)...

I know he doesn't really belong, but I'd vote for him every chance I got.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Piazza belongs for sure. Next years should be Randy Johnson, Pedro, and Piazza.

Clemons and Bonds are elite, even among hall of famers. But they're assholes and were caught cheating. They should at least wait until some clear policy concerning cheaters is determined.

Edit to add: Mussina and Schilling both deserve to be in more than Morris.

[BmillsSkier]

Oh really. Just because he was in a fairly small market on a sucky team and didn't get caught? Please. Dude is another roid giant. I mean, I'll trust a pitcher like Maddox or Glavine, but, Thomas is one lucky man.

Benny thinks Chicago is a "fairly small market".

I stopped reading after that.

[stfu&gbtw]

Benny thinks Chicago is a "fairly small market".

I stopped reading after that.

Benny's post was under Benny's username. Could have even stopped a few words earlier than you did.

[powpig]

Read this elsewhere, pretty funny but certainly a bit of truth to it.

In their quest for purity, the HOF voters should have also given due consideration to the fact that Maddux and Glavine pitched in the "24 inch wide strike zone era," and any numbers they put up in their careers are also tainted. Those that speculate how many homers Bonds might have hit sans PEDs might also ponder what Maddux and Glavine's records would have been had they ever actually had to throw the ball over the plate.

[stfu&gbtw]

Read this elsewhere, pretty funny but certainly a bit of truth to it.

I lol'd. Reminds me of:

"Son, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know."

[Benny Profane]

Read this elsewhere, pretty funny but certainly a bit of truth to it.

Maddux could win a game with a six inch strike zone. Best pitcher I have ever seen.

[Benny Profane]

Benny thinks Chicago is a "fairly small market".

I stopped reading after that.

Smaller than the Cubs. At the time.

[stfu&gbtw]

Smaller than the Cubs. At the time.

The Sox might the less popular team, but Chicago is the same size market, regardless of the popularity of the team.

Do the Mets play in a small market?

[Benny Profane]

Dude, if nobody comes to see you lose, your market is small.

They're all across town watching the Cubs lose.

[stfu&gbtw]

Dude, if nobody comes to see you lose, your market is small.

They're all across town watching the Cubs lose.

If the market is small, when Sox attendance goes from 1.9M in the year before they win the world series, to 2.9M the year after they win the world series, where do those 1M extra fans come from? If the fans are in Chicago, it's the Chicago market.