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12-16-2013, 11:54 PM #26Registered User
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Couldn't that also be because the snow had the entire winter to cool the ground it's sitting on? i.e. there'd be less melt of the snow that is in contact with the ground by spring time because the ground temperature (surface, and at depth) would be a lot lower by then, which might be effectively a lot like reducing snowpack temp gradients.
I'd be interested in using the model for an entire grid of meteorological values as the season progresses. The idea is to provide some kind of real time map, which could reduce the need for observations. You are right though, it may not provide very useful data, at least not initially. All weather models (even the high resolution ones) use a kind of 'smoothed' terrain as part of their lower boundary condition, which creates a mismatch between model elevations and real world elevations). I guess you could also use a statistical downscaling technique as well though...
Unfortunately I haven't got a full season worth of hourly data but I'd like to look into a snowpack model. You essentially just turn your snowpack model into a subroutine and call it form the main atmosphere model and you've got a nice tool to look at the snowpack where there are no observations. You could even make it a 2-way coupling and improve the output of the atmosphere model, although that probably wouldn't be worth it for the computational resources required.
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12-17-2013, 01:55 AM #27
A lot of things are possible but I continue to remain doubtful in this case. How would the snow "cool" the ground? I was talking about ice faces, which are already rather cold, but in any case, snow isolates the ground and prevents it from cooling as much as it would if it were bare. I also still don't understand what exactly you mean when you say "melt". You keep mentioning temperature gradients, which suggests you mean facetting/depth hoar, rather than actual melt. (Spring snow packs start melting at the top, not the ground. Melt water may travel down to the ground in spring , causing glide cracks and subsequent slides. Glidecracks also occur when the ground is very wet and warm at the first snowfall, but this does not seem to be what you are describing and has little to do with temperature gradients through the snowpack.)
I very much doubt that this would ever be good enough to replace observations. You could probably manage the radiation components reasonably well if you have a high resolution digital elevation model and do some downscaling but all things wind related would be extremely difficult. IMO you would need a full boundary layer model between the snow and the atmosphere model.
Most research does not use the super detailed snowpack models to couple with other stuff but people have been doing things like what you describe, e.g.:
http://www.the-cryosphere-discuss.ne...2191-2013.html
Soil temperature modeling also often uses some sort of snow model.
I believe we have completey derailed this thread.Ich bitte dich nur, weck mich nicht.
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12-17-2013, 03:15 AM #28spook Guest
maybe the reason it seems sort of stupid to a stupid is that virtually every time i see it on gopro the people doing it sound and act like assholes.
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12-17-2013, 08:21 PM #29
This tool kicks cornices. Not everywhere and not all the time though.
I get the objections to it: thin snow = weak snow. So, continually triggering slides on a given slope can keep it thin/faceted & weak, as opposed to waiting for the snowpack to strengthen over time.
It does make for a heck of a stability test and if you do it enough you'll get to see some really cool shit. One of the best ways to learn about something is to see it. Nothing like seeing avalanches from up close, as long as you don't get in their way!
I hear stories of people who have been riding the "backcountry" for several seasons and the first slide they see is the one they get caught in! This is unbelievable to me. So yeah, kick those cornices, cut that convex rollover & thrash around on test slopes. Carefully!
Make sure the coast is clear. Really CLEAR. Eventually one will run full track & you will be standing there thinking "Fuck, what have I done?!!". It goes without mentioning you can get spanked doing this sort of thing.
Also, if you are in cell-covered area, it is a good Idea to have Sheriff Dispatch or Ski Patrol's # handy so you can call in a "stand down". You don't want anyone getting into a helicopter on your account....
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12-29-2013, 09:31 AM #30
I sure seen a lot of patrollers using it in closed zones. Then ski it after it runs.
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12-29-2013, 08:45 PM #31
I am not sure if this incident is an argument for or against cornice kicking.
http://www.tetonat.com/2012/01/24/ta...ain-avalanche/We're not happy 'til you're not happy.
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12-29-2013, 09:07 PM #32
Here is the uncensored link to the Mark White West Monitor cornice kicking in foul-mouthed audio splendor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1WYcQf7yyMWe're not happy 'til you're not happy.
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12-29-2013, 11:23 PM #33
Hey SFB, just found a use for the 10# weight I never get to use.
Look out below MoFo's!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ilttmWzkwHunting kicks ass.
Chicks dig Labs.
I'll keep my job, my money and my guns and you can keep the change.
From my cold dead hands.
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02-10-2014, 10:04 PM #34
The snow on West Monitor was killed today by ignorant cornice whompers who had no intention of skiing it. The cornice may have eventually fallen naturally and it may have been the same result or maybe not. West Monitor is back to an early season snow pack. There is a lot of moisture in our recent snow. Some cold temps will lock things up and greatly strengthen our snowpack. Please leave the cornices be, on the big slopes we share, when you have no intent to ski it.Last edited by Hey Diddle Diddle; 02-12-2014 at 08:24 AM.
We're not happy 'til you're not happy.
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02-11-2014, 11:10 AM #35
funny that Mark White made the observation and submitted it to UAC.
what is with his love affair with West Monitor cornices.
gotta love that old video of MSB and her clean mouth. shhh no cussin I'm videoing. cracks me up every time
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02-11-2014, 11:59 AM #36
I do not know this mark white fellow and I do appreciate his obs on uac but some body really needs to tell him stop bringing down the monitors, I'd really like to ski it one day.
http://utahavalanchecenter.org/avalanches/20348
Sent from my SM-T210R using TGR ForumsBunny Don't Surf
Have you seen a one armed man around here?
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02-11-2014, 12:05 PM #37
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02-11-2014, 01:15 PM #38
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02-11-2014, 02:08 PM #39skin track terrorist
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knocked off a human-sized chunk of cornice on a ridge today. the pocket it landed on broke, but only slid about 10 ft.. deeep up there.
its kind of like a snow pit.. certainly not required to ride safely, but it can give you bullseye information regarding stability..long live the jahrator
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02-11-2014, 02:13 PM #40Banned
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02-11-2014, 05:11 PM #41
not quite as retarded as the fat ass goblin tippin lds bsoa dorks but close
i think ol spindrifty wants to be part of the crew
i gots the cuntinator on ignorze i bet it was cuntworthy ego fluffin roj
it's what he does
well hopefully the i know it will go but how big yahoos can control themselves and show some restrain till shit bridges"When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
"I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
"THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
"I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno
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02-11-2014, 05:50 PM #42Banned
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^^^^^^fucking thinned skinned gaper that SFB is. Still. Oh the lulz.
rog
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02-12-2014, 11:37 PM #43
I read a DOA publication from the 70's that demonstrated the measurable, but seemingly negligible impacts of cornice killing on spring watershed. I'm assuming there are still reasons for blasting cornices to prevent sublimation, but letting the snow pile up is gives one perspective. Triggering the slide and skiing what's left along the margins (hangfire) is selfish, but depending on how things ran it could give you a better idea for what's stable on a particular slope, as well as valuable obs that could be extrapolated more broadly. But just because it didn't go doesn't mean it won't, so I guess it's better to use the cornices as huck points, and just put your money where your mouth is.
Above the fingers of death sits a delicate winter garden
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02-13-2014, 07:29 AM #44
I don't think anyone disputes stomping cornices is a tool to assess slope stability, its a damn good one. But the use of it to get yer jollies is the issue. In particular the monitors on the park shitty ridgeline, n facing, generally always loaded ready to pop. You can look at the and tell yep uber windloaded, lets not go there. Bringing them down when you have no intention of skiing them seems kind of senseless to me. This white fellow puts up obs on Uac almost daily, tours with Kobernick and posts shared obs with him. He has to know the score. Hasn't he posted in the wasatch obs thread in the past? Maybe he could come on here and esplain why he can't walk the PC ridge without stomping the cornice on west monitor....
Sent from my MB886 using TGR ForumsBunny Don't Surf
Have you seen a one armed man around here?
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02-13-2014, 07:36 AM #45
i don't think spindrifties stomped the last one he was just wanderin by out touring with his ego
he rolls that way
and i think the pottymouth self appointed queen o wasatch tried to justify it somewhere in a thread here
search or gear up and get your soli thurs on
we can go out to wolvie and go pro ourselves creating repeaters
like the pros"When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
"I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
"THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
"I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno
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02-13-2014, 06:31 PM #46Registered User
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I found these today.
Coulda, shouda, wouda stomped on um but...no gopro.
I guess nature will just have to run it's course.
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02-13-2014, 06:39 PM #47
Today We witnessed a natural cornice break on conehead PC ridgeline. It started causing some sluff, untill about half way down a piece of bouncing cornice released a pocket to the ground probably 70-80ft across up to 2-5ft deep.
Mark White was nowhere to be found
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02-13-2014, 07:24 PM #48Banned
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You guys ever consider that white may be saving someone's life by clearing the monitors? Lots of folks move about along those ridges and many of them that don't know how dangerous those slopes can be could easily be lured in.
rog
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02-13-2014, 07:30 PM #49
I was taught by a wise kootenay inhabitant that you can chop over any type of terrain trap anytime.
Other than that, don't f with it unless you've deemed what's below skiable now and you intend to make
turns on it now or you already have an objective and this is your pre-sighting look for a subsequent lap.
Otherwise preserveI am not in your hurry
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02-13-2014, 07:38 PM #50Banned
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