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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by hop View Post
    Insult my editing skills, meadow skipping, and non-HD footage all you want but don't be hating on Sade!
    I'm good with that, mellow vibe for a mellow edit. Works. Lotta pizza on that menu, but it was a serious upgrade to the downward spiral.

    Isn't it time someone did a summary so this thing can go into cold storage? If so, please don't forget to mention that according to rog SFB can't out-suck him even with one skin still on, but SFB disagrees. Some of the most magnanimous maggot on maggot crime this season.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoWork View Post
    dingdingdingding


    There are really only a handful of names that could fill that criteria. Gunder is probably #1 photog-wise but I seriously doubt he's that dumb
    It wasnt me. I was in the area on Sunday on a catalog shoot, and we did discuss going to that area breifly, but quickly decided it was too sketchy. We where at Park City Powder cats skiing FGP. I have ZERO patience for ANYONE that is out of bounds with no avy gear. I got way way to many dead friends. Shit, Two years ago I lost 5 friends in one season (all of them where very experienced). Shit does happen, so there is no excuse to not have your gear 100% of the time.

  3. #228
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    fuck that clueless protog
    i wanna know who the other local beaconless chica that thought this, every avvy class is going to use you as poster children for multiple lessons of retardation act, was prudent is
    and if her racks nearly as nice.
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hott Butt Mud View Post









    ........ TRUTH!!
    wow inking your face with your intellectual properties is takin it to a new level
    didn't see that comin
    just goes to show ya ski and party w/ a dude
    and ya still don't know em
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  5. #230
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    So, where was the ski cut when you needed it?



    This Grizzly Gulch avy seemed pretty small, like class 1-2, yet the skier managed to get buried even with an airbag because she wound up in the maximum deposition zone.



    OK, maybe the ski cut was a little low...


    That's what you get for charging into the gut of a terrain trap...

    ...which is the kind of maneuver one often sees from clueless boarders.



    Maybe read the signs and the avy forecast?



    In chamonix, skiers are cutting class 1+ slides regularly on some trade routes. Ski cuts are key, but if the slope fails to go, now you are under the line of fire.....



    The real hazard is when a whole 700-1000m couloir rips out. There, airbags and beacons are no guarantee of survival, and a number of fully-equipped people have been killed on such slides in the Mont Blanc Massif. From the Cosmiques, we saw a swedish guy with an airbag sadly die last winter in an avy in the couloir du Nant Pcheu on the Brevent side.



    Even if the slide doesn't kill you from trauma, how do your buddies do a beacon search on a 700m couloir and dig you out in 15min?



    The best bet is to call the helicopter immediately, and ski to the bottom to start the search in the deposition zone. Then, the heli can scan the higher couloir with the Recco detector (what no Recco Reflectors??). Even skiing down the line may take more than 15min. With a bigger posse, you can search more terrain. In any case, avalanches on big lines are bad news.

    Coming soon are avalanche rescue drones. Ski with the personal drone to provide top cover in case of slide...



    Meantime, your best bet is to send in a posse of 3-5 pro skiers (no shortage in Cham) to test stability!



    The only problem is that they are getting smarter and figure to send in a couple punters first....




    As for dipshits with no avy gear and no knowledge of how to use it, leave them in the pub...

    Now, about crevassed terrain.....



    Last year, I was skiing down the Vallée Blanche on a very quiet day and I ran across a crevasse rescue by the PGHM. One boarder augured over the front of his board and flipped directly down a crevasse. His buddy had no clue. Neither had harnesses or, for that matter, any gear. They didn't have a phone or the rescue number. A Swedish friend of mine came along and called the heli. The PGHM fished the guy out and he got away with a broken shoulder. It turned out the boarders did not realize that they were on glaciated terrain.

    I wonder how AK skiers manage the hazards...probably better because the bumblers have a hard time getting into zone, at least without guides.
    Last edited by jumpturn; 12-17-2013 at 12:27 PM.

  6. #231
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    BD has an interview with the photog: http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/..._grizzly_gulch

  7. #232
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    Good on AC for learning from his mistake. Hoepfully more people clue in to always riding with your BC gear. The shit doesnt way that much, and slides can and do happen inbounds / BC / sidecountry.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeStrummer View Post
    What are you guys, the avalanche Stasi? The unknown photographer doesnt owe any of you jackshit, including his identity.

    I almost feel bad for the guy, awakening the veritable Sauron's Eye that is TGR's sense of entitlement to judgement!
    I think TGR has every right to speculate as to this guys identity, as well as judge the shit out of him. Its not like any self respecting adult gives half a fuck about what a bunch of dipshits on the internet think of him, but this is a slightly different scenario than just a group of friends getting themselves into an avy. If you behave in the way this photographer did, the vitriol of the internet lynch mob is a natural consequence, and one of far less real consequence than an avalanche. Most likely the knowledge that hes a douche is enough to make him reconsider his BC habits, but if not I'm sure he can endure the horror that is strangers on the internet voicing their disapproval of him. Shit, plenty of people, myself included, have aroused the ire of the maggot minions over things far more trivial than this.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  9. #234
    spook Guest
    i didn't think any names should have been named until something was confirmed. i don't know how people can say tossing names out there doesn't matter. particularly given the judgment heaped upon them immediately whether verbalized or not.

  10. #235
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    Glad to see more people recognizing the human factor. Taking the classes, having the gear, digging the pits, assigning a number to the danger level etc... are all great things, but being able to say no more often then not is the hardest thing for anyone to learn and apply regularly. Having witnessed the tragic aftermath of a slide bigger than comprehension years ago, having several friends almost die in a slide next to a flat beginner cat track (if you saw where you wouldn't believe me), and seeing crowns on tracked-out inbounds slide controlled terrain, I can say that snow can be a real bitch and doesn't like to follow the rules we try to set for it. Seeing dead bodies or friends have close calls in-person will change your decision making more than any classroom knowledge, reading internet armchair qb'ing/lynching, or trust in some equipment. There is a reason why avalanche forecasts don't EVER say NO avalanche danger. You have to be under the assumption that there is always a chance, and that unlike winning the lotto, that 1% chance or less will happen several times to you unless you stick to the middle of groomers at Vail. I'd be willing to bet that those involved in this incident will be making better decisions than most from now on.
    smoke crack and worship satan

  11. #236
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    Total ageement on the human factor and
    Group dynamics and experience mostly the experience of getting away with less intelligent decisions
    and not repeating them
    learnt more in a long ass low danger day on box elder than all my formal avvy edjucation
    https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...-TR?highlight=
    especially in reguards to group dynamics which really cant be truely taught and always changes in some reguard
    Watched someones decision to dig a pit almost send him for a ride down the same slidepath

    that killed a fine young maggot and the group dynamics in that incident were huge
    http://utahavalanchecenter.org/avala...kessler-peak-0
    J doesn't seem post here any more and i'm bummed in that and that i missed his recount of the story at the ussw, but it involves and has group dynamics of this place at it's core
    Harshly mmacqbed a maggot who my jong ass didn't even realize was a maggot for a high danger incident when ive pretty put myself real similar circumstances repeatedly and gotten away with it.
    skied steeper and more consequential terrain than i really wanted to sat.
    hell for all i know the inability to turn much with one skin on saved my life
    imo the only thing thats gonna keep you on top or dig ya out alive is the decisions of you and your crew using the experience tools and skills you choose to employ before during and after
    and a crowded wasangles sure helped in this situation props to those guys hopefully they don't need to employ their other peoples companion rescue skills again
    if they do i am positive their IRL experience will help
    Last edited by skifishbum; 12-18-2013 at 08:25 AM.
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  12. #237
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    "It was really interesting; the avalanche happened and the next day I was in an avalanche class."

    I'm sorry, this sounds an awful lot like "I checked myself into rehab for drugs / alcohol / sex addiction, etc) the day after I got caught doing something really bad, so now all should be forgiven." "I'm healed now."

    He also does a pretty good job of not completely putting all of the blame on his photography subject. Fact is it really wasn't anyone's fault , just "The Human Factor" to blame here.

    Damn Humans

  13. #238
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    What are people's thoughts in regards to this happening to our professionals. It would be one thing if this was just a couple of younger kids out trying to get a shot for themselves, but these are the people who are getting paid by the companies that we support. I would think that the ski industry as a whole is to be blame as well. Professional skiers are told to go out and get a shot for the company without any sort of liability insurance or protection for the athlete. Ultimately it is the decision of the skiers in the party who make the decisions, but I have to think that some of the problem stems from companies throwing gear at skiers who may or may not have the experience to be making these decisions. We all make mistakes, but there is a difference between taking risk on your own terms vs being on the clock and a so called role model
    If a similar accident happend at a different job site I could see them loosing their jobs because of it.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfmansbro View Post
    What are people's thoughts in regards to this happening to our professionals. It would be one thing if this was just a couple of younger kids out trying to get a shot for themselves, but these are the people who are getting paid by the companies that we support. I would think that the ski industry as a whole is to be blame as well. Professional skiers are told to go out and get a shot for the company without any sort of liability insurance or protection for the athlete. Ultimately it is the decision of the skiers in the party who make the decisions, but I have to think that some of the problem stems from companies throwing gear at skiers who may or may not have the experience to be making these decisions. We all make mistakes, but there is a difference between taking risk on your own terms vs being on the clock and a so called role model
    If a similar accident happend at a different job site I could see them loosing their jobs because of it.
    I think what this proves is that the marketing side of the ski industry dont have anymore of a clue about this stuff than you or I. If you want avalanche professionals, go talk to ski patrol or the guys controlling roads/highways, not some douche with a camera who is winning at the magazine/film popularity circle jerk.

    Sent from my LG-D803 using TGR Forums
    Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. -Helen Keller

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    I think what this proves is that the marketing side of the ski industry dont have anymore of a clue about this stuff than you or I. If you want avalanche professionals, go talk to ski patrol or the guys controlling roads/highways, not some douche with a camera who is winning at the magazine/film popularity circle jerk.
    Well fucking said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  16. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    I think what this proves is that the marketing side of the ski industry dont have anymore of a clue about this stuff than you or I. If you want avalanche professionals, go talk to ski patrol or the guys controlling roads/highways, not some douche with a camera who is winning at the magazine/film popularity circle jerk.

    Sent from my LG-D803 using TGR Forums
    imho that is an overreaching generalization. This does show that one protog made some mistakes. And owned up to it. But i've also lost 20+ year patrol buddies because they are human and made mistakes too. I bet there are some protogs that are making more conservative decisions than some pro patrollers, and vice versa.

    If nothing else though i bet this will inspire athlete/models and protogs to stop and think a little more about what they are doing, and where...which along with AC's interview may benefit somebody...
    Something about the wrinkle in your forehead tells me there's a fit about to get thrown
    And I never hear a single word you say when you tell me not to have my fun
    It's the same old shit that I ain't gonna take off anyone.
    and I never had a shortage of people tryin' to warn me about the dangers I pose to myself.

    Patterson Hood of the DBT's

  17. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Well fucking said.
    And you bet your ass anyone else in the ski industry (patrol, guide, ski school, rental shop tech) who stepped out of bounds with a client or coworker not wearing a beacon where somebody got buried would lose their job on the spot... and nobody would care what stupid excuse they tried to come up with. Dead horse beaten, but think about it in those terms and not the dude fest that is the marketing side of skiing.
    Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. -Helen Keller

  18. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    And you bet your ass anyone else in the ski industry (patrol, guide, ski school, rental shop tech) who stepped out of bounds with a client or coworker not wearing a beacon where somebody got buried would lose their job on the spot... and nobody would care what stupid excuse they tried to come up with. Dead horse beaten, but think about it in those terms and not the dude fest that is the marketing side of skiing.
    Thats the point I was trying to make. thanks

  19. #244
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    three people made a bad choice here. In my experience some of the biggest risk takers I know are pro's. Seems like we are judging others for things we've all possibly done and gotten lucky.

    I love friends that say "Have you considered X" when I am doing something stupid. I also take full accountability for me. I don't think anyone I am with is responsible for me in any way unless they are a guide. Even then, I've pissed some off by checking their knots on a repel.

    When someone gets caught, a mistake was made. We all learn from those. That is the value of these posts to me.

  20. #245
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    I thought that interview asked most of the questions that people have brought up in this thread, but the conversation about the ethics of photographing people doing risky things still seems thin. I understand the justification that Clark offered, but it seems hollow, like it's a topic he avoids in his own mind or something. As with a lot of features of this activity, this area hasn't adopted the kinds of rules that others have--yet. Union talent in Hollywood would not be exposed to risks without mitigation protocols, for example. I'm not looking forward to the day when freeskiing isn't free, and it's stuff like this that risks that outcome. Hoping some of the pros here will speak to that more.

    That said, good on him for coming forward and saying what he did. It's always helpful to consider ways to avoid mistakes even when they seem obvious in hindsight, because I'm sure they have the same hindsight, but they also know how better judgement failed, and that's the lesson I'm looking for. Not sure just a ritual can solve powder blindness to near perfect consistency but it does seem like it would have helped him out here.

  21. #246
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    I really do not want to participate in the thread. It is a mess.

    But...

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbird Commuter View Post
    Fact is it really wasn't anyone's fault , just "The Human Factor" to blame here.
    The Human Factor is ours to be aware of, plan for, monitor and manage. Both during pre-trip trip planning and especially once in the field. A Human Factor fail, whilst insidious and hard to control, is still our fault.

    The best defence to Human Factors is having a well thought out and planned trip for the conditions, and being with people you can speak to openly, and to recognize if you are being "objective driven". Also using a consistent systematic way of making avalanche decisions. A systematic approach at the entry level of experience helps remove human bias. And in this instance probably would have ruled out that slope by factoring the days snow character and the terrain configuration.

    The moment you have a day with cameras, aspirant professionals, blue skies, pretty girls, powder... you need to assume the cup floweth over with Human Factors and you need to get a grip on them from your first sip of coffee to when you get back to the car. This means looking at your group of buddies in the eye at the trailhead (or before) and asking out loud: "ok friends, what Human Factors might influence our decision making today?". If you don't get an answer, think harder, because Human Factors are always present to some degree. If someone disses your question, find another group of friends to risk you life with.
    Life is not lift served.

  22. #247
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    Since this thread is all over the place, I have a question.
    It seems to me the majority of people killed in avalanches have gear and some degree of training.
    It kind of reminds me of a guy that has a bunch of guns for protection, yet shoots himself while cleaning his guns.
    I gave a guy a ride form Victor ID to SLC, that had been backcountry skiing since the early 70's.
    I asked him what they did before beacons. He said they just tied a 20' red ribbon on their leg and were careful.
    My question is, would you wind up being safer without all the new tech?
    Also how many people every year are killed with gear vs without?

  23. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiballs View Post
    My question is, would you wind up being safer without all the new tech?
    yes, imo. same with going solo. less people die in avy's when solo cuz when solo you tend to be more conservative cuz it's just you out there in many cases.

    and generally the more you know, the more you go, and the more you may put yerself at risk in some, way, shape, or form to nature and it's moods.

    rog

  24. #249
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    Damn, SkiFishBUm shreds, hard.

    Rog, not so much. nice jump turns, bro.
    Terje was right.

    "We're all kooks to somebody else." -Shelby Menzel

  25. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiballs View Post
    It seems to me the majority of people killed in avalanches have gear and some degree of training.
    I am making no attempt to verify your statement here, but I do think a lot of people take training, feel good about it, and then fail to apply what they learnt. Or they get out in the terrain so infrequently that they forget what they learnt.

    I think a lot of people fail to apply what they learnt because they ski with people who do not accommodate open free easy talking about who they are, where they are, what they are doing and what they objectives are. This is often because they are skiing with people who they do not know very well at all, or because they think the other person is a "local" so no matter what they say or do, it must be correct.

    Avalanche training is useless, perhaps dangerous, if you don't apply what you learnt.
    Life is not lift served.

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