Early snows are creating scary snowpacks. Be careful!

[raisingarizona13]

I just saw this on fb.

http://unofficialnetworks.com/jackso...lanche-126364/

If I remember correctly a few folks were giving some of us shit for not being excited about early snow storms. I still don't love September or October dumps.

Be careful out there.

[Alkares]

I was thinking the same after hearing about all the early snow this season in the Wasatch. Gonna be one hell of a season with a faceted base..... Be careful out there people!

[icelanticskier]

MOMMY!!!!!!!!!!

rog

[The Gnarwhale]

People give you shit about early season storm rants because your opinion and my opinion will not change whether the weather happens. The idea that there's even an argument to have about thumbs up/down for early season storms is just silly. They will happen, or wont happen, end of story. Add to that, it's not the storms that are the problem. It's the weeks of cold clear weather that follow. If it just kept storming, like it sometimes does in the PNW, there's no avalanche problem.

Here in the Wasatch, it's the same story as pretty much every year: Oct storms followed by Nov high pressure, followed by a return to winter. If this year follows patterns of the last six+ years, then a month from now high elevation N and E facing will have decent coverage but be sketchy in many places. S/W aspects will be facet-free but shallow. Mid elevation, moderate angle lines will be the name of the game for a bit. Then people will get bored of skiing 30 degree glades and someone will go for a ride. Then the Wasatch will gets some big, wet storms and more alpine terrain will be good to go, maybe in January but some years not until March. Early season facets are responsible for many Nov/Dec avalanches, but by January some other persistent weak layer is usually the primary concern. Rinse and repeat for 14/15 season.

Dont be complacent out there, but this year's early snow wasnt an outlier either.

[Ted Shred]

I just saw this on fb.

http://unofficialnetworks.com/jackso...lanche-126364/

If I remember correctly a few folks were giving some of us shit for not being excited about early snow storms. I still don't love September or October dumps.

Be careful out there.

So what you are saying is, that weeks snow did actually turn into this seasons depth hoar?

Hmm, no way! How did you see that one comin???? You all full of the smartz and here I thought you were some Joey fresh out of Jerzy! ( heavy sarcasm used here, for those that couldn't tell.)

[sfotex]

I just saw this on fb.

http://unofficialnetworks.com/jackso...lanche-126364/

If I remember correctly a few folks were giving some of us shit for not being excited about early snow storms. I still don't love September or October dumps.

So, let's say it didn't snow at all until January, then we get a few storms and have a nice, shallow snowpack that was causing problems, would it then become mid-winter snows are creating scary snowpacks?

[Lone Star]

Gnarwhale said it way nicer than I could have. You might as well bitch any time it snows because it's snow that avalanches and kills people.

[Lamothe]

People give you shit about early season storm rants because your opinion and my opinion will not change whether the weather happens. The idea that there's even an argument to have about thumbs up/down for early season storms is just silly. They will happen, or wont happen, end of story. Add to that, it's not the storms that are the problem. It's the weeks of cold clear weather that follow. If it just kept storming, like it sometimes does in the PNW, there's no avalanche problem.

Here in the Wasatch, it's the same story as pretty much every year: Oct storms followed by Nov high pressure, followed by a return to winter. If this year follows patterns of the last six+ years, then a month from now high elevation N and E facing will have decent coverage but be sketchy in many places. S/W aspects will be facet-free but shallow. Mid elevation, moderate angle lines will be the name of the game for a bit. Then people will get bored of skiing 30 degree glades and someone will go for a ride. Then the Wasatch will gets some big, wet storms and more alpine terrain will be good to go, maybe in January but some years not until March. Early season facets are responsible for many Nov/Dec avalanches, but by January some other persistent weak layer is usually the primary concern. Rinse and repeat for 14/15 season.

Dont be complacent out there, but this year's early snow wasnt an outlier either.

Agreed. People seem to forget that need to pay extra attention to terrain choice this time of year and pay attention to the snow pack in the particular area they are skiing. I feel people are just taking to many risks and not paying close enough attention, it seems like a bigger problem early season. Only 50cm base...it wont slide right? Maybe it's because i live in the rockies and am very wary of stability all the time because moderate does not mean good to go , maybe im just a pansy but dial it back , i don't like maybes, so if not sure , i don't ski it. Simple no?

[raisingarizona13]

So what you are saying is, that weeks snow did actually turn into this seasons depth hoar?

Hmm, no way! How did you see that one comin???? You all full of the smartz and here I thought you were some Joey fresh out of Jerzy! ( heavy sarcasm used here, for those that couldn't tell.)

What, you think your better than me? Don't be disrespecting me! -Read with ridiculous Jersey accent.

[raisingarizona13]

People give you shit about early season storm rants because your opinion and my opinion will not change whether the weather happens. The idea that there's even an argument to have about thumbs up/down for early season storms is just silly. They will happen, or wont happen, end of story. Add to that, it's not the storms that are the problem. It's the weeks of cold clear weather that follow. If it just kept storming, like it sometimes does in the PNW, there's no avalanche problem.

Here in the Wasatch, it's the same story as pretty much every year: Oct storms followed by Nov high pressure, followed by a return to winter. If this year follows patterns of the last six+ years, then a month from now high elevation N and E facing will have decent coverage but be sketchy in many places. S/W aspects will be facet-free but shallow. Mid elevation, moderate angle lines will be the name of the game for a bit. Then people will get bored of skiing 30 degree glades and someone will go for a ride. Then the Wasatch will gets some big, wet storms and more alpine terrain will be good to go, maybe in January but some years not until March. Early season facets are responsible for many Nov/Dec avalanches, but by January some other persistent weak layer is usually the primary concern. Rinse and repeat for 14/15 season.

Dont be complacent out there, but this year's early snow wasnt an outlier either.

It's a good point. It's going to do whatever it's going to do. Enjoy the whatever I suppose. I still have some ptsd from a really sketchy year in Jackson. Okay thats a bit of an exaggeration but not too much of one.

That year was 2000-2001, I remember after the mountain closed I went up to those hot springs in the southern end of Yellowstone one night with my lady friend. All of that geothermal heating created a lot of very weak spots in the snow there. We were walking out on flat ground with no hills around what so ever and about a 15 foot radius collapsed and whoomphed all around me. I dove for a tree and grabbed the trunk with both arms. I must have looked RIDICULOUS! But that was how much that winter messed with me.

[Buster Highmen]

People give you shit about early season storm rants because your opinion and my opinion will not change whether the weather happens.

It's not because they have meaningless lives and a neurotic need to try to be somebody?

The idea that there's even an argument to have about thumbs up/down for early season storms is just silly. They will happen, or wont happen, end of story. Add to that, it's not the storms that are the problem. It's the weeks of cold clear weather that follow. If it just kept storming, like it sometimes does in the PNW, there's no avalanche problem.


Here in the Wasatch, it's the same story as pretty much every year: Oct storms followed by Nov high pressure, followed by a return to winter. If this year follows patterns of the last six+ years, then a month from now high elevation N and E facing will have decent coverage but be sketchy in many places. S/W aspects will be facet-free but shallow. Mid elevation, moderate angle lines will be the name of the game for a bit. Then people will get bored of skiing 30 degree glades and someone will go for a ride. Then the Wasatch will gets some big, wet storms and more alpine terrain will be good to go, maybe in January but some years not until March.

So, there's no statistics to support or deny the claim that :

Early season facets are responsible for many Nov/Dec avalanches, ?

but by January some other persistent weak layer is usually the primary concern. Rinse and repeat for 14/15 season.

Dont be complacent out there, but this year's early snow wasnt an outlier either.

I don't get it. So RA says be careful, some twits take it as a dickwave and wave back. And now the Gnarwhale seems to support at least a portion of RA's warning.

Being in the PNW, I don't get all bunched up about early season snowpack providing weak layers. We have rain/freeze events for that.
But occasionally skiing in CO, I can understand that there might be some statistical support for RA's warning.
UT may have the most sparse distribution of behavior regarding the effects of early season snow that sometimes morphs under the high pressure into a fragile layer.

Anyway, good old TGR....

[capulin overdrive]

Yup, bitching is almost clock work around here.


I like the early for selfish reasons, better chance that I can get on it than the late spring stuff.

[Johnny Deep]

Depth Hoar will last longer than your current relationship.

[raisingarizona13]

Some comments on facebook about the avalanche in Jackson got me thinking. One in particular was a guy asked well why was the forecast rated at low? I wonder how many people ski the back country and depend solely on the avalanche forecast but have little to no knowledge on how to analyze the pack on their own? For me this brings up an interesting discussion. Does having an avalanche forecast create a dumbed down version of back country skiers? Looking back when I lived in Jackson I was aware but maybe not enough since I always could look at the report, after moving to Flagstaff myself and skiing partners had to learn about the snow on our own and do our own analysis. It was an eye opener for sure and we tip toed our way around until we really started to know our mountain and it's moods. Just some thoughts.

[The Gnarwhale]

It's not because they have meaningless lives and a neurotic need to try to be somebody?

...says the guy with 12,000 tgr posts

So, there's no statistics to support or deny the claim that :

There are lots of stats to back the fact that basal facets are the cause of most early season Avalanches in UT and CO and most other places that arent maritime. One of many sources for that data is records of avalanches. Look at the trend in the "Weakness" column in Oct-Dec avalanches in the Wasatch in 2012 2011 2010

On that note, today is the 2nd anneversary of Jamie Pierre's death. Here's that accident report. RIP.

Here's video recaps from Utah:

12-13 Craig Gordon is a funny man



11-12



I still say bitching about early season storms and telling people not to gloat about skiing in October is stupid. Ski on 18" over grass and rocks if you want. I do. Dont ski on 18" over rocks if you dont want. But what's there to gain from being a funsponge finger-wagger to the people who do?

[LightRanger]

^^^ Well said.

[Hugh Conway]

But dont be a funsponge finger-wagger to the people who do.

way to bring the funsponge finger-wagger dick-waver

[Tye 1on]

Some comments on facebook about the avalanche in Jackson got me thinking. One in particular was a guy asked well why was the forecast rated at low? I wonder how many people ski the back country and depend solely on the avalanche forecast but have little to know knowledge on how to analyze the pack on their own? For me this brings up an interesting discussion. Does having an avalanche forecast create a dumbed down version of back country skiers? Looking back when I lived in Jackson I was aware but maybe not enough since I always could look at the report, after moving to Flagstaff myself and skiing partners had to learn about the snow on our own and do our own analysis. It was an eye opener for sure and we tip toed our way around until we really started to know our mountain and it's moods. Just some thoughts.

imho, the JH avi forecast is very good at describing hazards in the area between Granite Canyon and Cody Peak. The pass, park and other backcountry shouldn't even be included in the forecast area, and anybody relying on that forecast when skiing uncontrolled backcountry lines in those areas need to re-evaluate their information gathering/decision making practices. After Jarad got killed in that slide in Apocalypse last year, the avi center was quick to point out that they don't provide forecasts for 'extreme' terrain, which I think they defined at over 40*. There are at least 4 top-notch companies teaching avi courses in and around JH, an impressive number of options for hands on learning from some of the best in the business...

[Liberty Skis]

That link you posted wasn't the only early season action up there: http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/e...9e1a89d0c.html

[Mofro261]

now say funsponge finger-wagger dick-waver out loud 5x fast.

The variants are fun too-

sponge dick wagger finger waver fun
finger-dick funsponge waver wagger
dickfinger fun wagger sponge waver

[icelanticskier]

Gordon is a funneh man. spend a season skiing with him, a real hoot!

parking lot pit

breaking the law

efficient

humor


rog

[The Gnarwhale]

^^^a first known descent? could use more whippets but nice track stacking

[icelanticskier]

^^^a first known descent? could use more whippets but nice track stacking

hahaha! we actually discussed the fact that it was in fact, a 1st decent......and ya crossing/touching other tracks is always strictly prohibited.

as was this. same day, similar aspect, and fkna similar elevation as it was a bit further upcanyon on fort union blvd

the road gap had me kinda gripped

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s79iDKCiG_w

oh, and to back the pics up above, here's the 2nd descent (craig nabbed the 1st) of la grande target basin. glad I had spotters above and below. as you can see, Gordon was off to the side in a somewhat safe spot. and always announce when yer ready to drop in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPqjdbKp4sE

rog

[Tye 1on]

wow, too bad you guys weren't on this trip of Gnarwhale's, he really could have used all that technical knowledge! http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...n-Spiral-(NSR)

[icelanticskier]

wow, too bad you guys weren't on this trip of Gnarwhale's, he really could have used all that technical knowledge! http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...n-Spiral-(NSR)

no way, that 33 day tour of gnarwhales was way too main stream and sought after. AK is like that. we're more into the exotic esoteric stuff. plus when we were done we were pretty much walking distance to lone star..

rog