AT Boot Comparative Flex by model (updated)

[Sicbith]

But it has the same shitty walk mode and the cuff floats, not locked to the lower when in ski mode? It doesn't have the plastic piece in the back that the XT has which at least gives the spine of the lower a bit of integrity. Soooo it's not an XT, it's worse.

Have you skied in it?? Im guessing not. The only thing those boots share is the walk mode buckle.

[adrenalated]

I can only speak for sure with Maestrales (incl all variants), but...
Dukes - yes, no problem
Jesters - several of my coworkers have definitely jammed Maestrales into Jesters at demo days and stuff, but they are definitely jammed in there. I would say chance of release is "no fucking way" and it definitely tears up the boot a little.
997s - I'll try to dick with my Maestrale RS and my 997s and STH14s tonight and see what I come up with.
Guardian (including even though you didn't ask because it's worth considering along with these other bindings) - will also dick with these tonight and report back. I seem to remember Marshal saying earlier this year that they will fit, but with too much friction at the toe for a reliable release. I bet a little grinding on the sole would make them work fine if that's the case.

Belated update:

Maestrale RS + Salomon Guardian: boot will fit, but is jammed in. Toe height does not open far enough to get adequate AFD clearance (not even close). With testing, I'd say lateral toe release is not gonna happen.
Maestrale RS + Salomon STH14: boot fits, toe height has sufficient adjustment to correctly set AFD clearance (with room to spare). I personally would want to throw it on a torque tester, but I think I'd feel reasonably confident in this setup.
Maestrale RS + Salomon 997 (all metal, worm screw, 14-DIN): see comments on Guardian. Does not fit well.

Hope that helps.

[cat in january]

Green Machine with full carbon cuff 100 by my rating.

Skied the boot last season. This boot had no chance as it was priced the same as the Vulcan in the one year Dynafit tried to sell it.

Reference: Dynafit Freeride Aero-skied these for 4 years. I would give them a 90, but kind of a weird flex-never removed the stops.

Alpine boot last 3 years is the Lange RS 120. Near perfect boot for me.


Wanted to edit this as on reflection I did not feel a number accurately reflected the boot. It was somewhat soft in the fore/aft flex and probably that is why I gave it the 100. Lateral stiffness was good although the pebax lower was noticeable. Initially I overtightened the boot thinking to add stiffness. Obviously this did not work.

[shaman161]

I am skiing in the Scarpa Skookum as a one boot quiver. Thinking of getting the Mastrale RS but not sure there would be enough of a difference in the way it skis to justify the $$$$. Any one skied both who can compare?

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I am skiing in the Scarpa Skookum as a one boot quiver. Thinking of getting the Mastrale RS but not sure there would be enough of a difference in the way it skis to justify the $$$$. Any one skied both who can compare?

The RS skis better, fits snugger, and tours MUCH better.

[Two06]

Anyone have direct comparison on cochise pro 130 vs Vulcan?

[Huskier]

I also ski in Zzeus and One PX. IMO the TLT5M is laterally stiffer than the Zzeus, and TLT5M w/tongue is only a bit fore-aft softer (maybe 5 flex points?) than the Zzeus and One PX. TLT5M w/o tongue might be 10 flex points softer fore-aft than Zzeus and PX One. PX One and Zzeus seem about the same fore-aft, but the One is laterally stiffer.

Those the old black & gold Zzeus or the newer model?

Anybody line the old black & gold Zzeus up with the One?

[shaman161]

I only skied the Mobe for one day but don't think it is much if any stiffer than the boots in the 100 category. I think it is the same boot as the Hurricane which is at 100 here. Also have skied the radiums and thought they were more like the boots in the 95-100 range.

[LeeLau]

BUMP.... for 2013-14 season

[gregL]

I give the TLT6P a 105 with the black tongue in, and the K2 Pinnacle 130 a 115.

[LeeLau]

I give the TLT6P a 105 with the black tongue in, and the K2 Pinnacle 130 a 115.

The TLT6P is stiffer than the Mercury and the Maestrale RS? Anyone else confirm this? On-snow please and not carpet if possible. I'm not getting my test pair till December

[gregL]

No, it's not stiffer than the Mercury or the RS, I forgot you had them both at 100. Personally I'd call the RS a 110 and the Mercury a 120 depending on how tight you buckle it up. The TLT6P with black tongue out of the box is very similar to my Mercury with a "V" cut out of the tongue. I won't be able to ski them until the weekend.

[LeeLau]

I'm wondering whether the stiffness of Mercury and Maestrale RS is rated too low. That was done because there seemed to be consensus to have the Factor, Titan at a 100 and there also seemed to be consensus to have Mercury and Maestrale RS about the same. Anyone else have thoughts?

[shafty85]

I'm wondering whether the stiffness of Mercury and Maestrale RS is rated too low. That was done because there seemed to be consensus to have the Factor, Titan at a 100 and there also seemed to be consensus to have Mercury and Maestrale RS about the same. Anyone else have thoughts?

I haven't skied many of the boots on the list, but I shudder to think of how stiff they are if the Mercury and RS are 10, 20 or 30% less stiff (really? they are only 2/3 the stiffness of the vulcan?). But, I will leave it to more educated minds to come to a proper conclusion.

[JRainey]

I would say the mercury is a 110-120, leaning towards 120. I don't get much flex out of mine. Certainly stiffer than the Titan.

[gPasca]

Has someone used the TLT5(Mountain) on fat skis(like 110/120 underfoot)?Does the tlt5 ski well on them?

[GeezerSteve]

Has someone used the TLT5(Mountain) on fat skis(like 110/120 underfoot)?Does the tlt5 ski well on them?

yes (112mm waist/23m radius skis) and yes. YMMV

ETA: Above comments is skiing TLT5M with tongue and upright FL setting

[GeezerSteve]

Anybody line the old black & gold Zzeus up with the One?

Lots of days on each. IMV they have similar fore-aft stiffness (albeit different flex pattern), but the One is stiffer laterally. Because my style is more dependent on the latter (lateral stiffness), I would rate the One 5 pts stiffer than the black & gold Zzeus.

[Dry]

Has someone used the TLT5(Mountain) on fat skis(like 110/120 underfoot)?Does the tlt5 ski well on them?

Yes and no. I use a 112mm Huascaran but it is a 177cm length ski. TLT5 mtn is perfect on them. Love the combo. Not enough boot for my 178 La Sportiva Hang5s IMO however. Or enough boot for my longer (188/196) boards compared to a One or a RS. Been too lazy to change the stance setting to date. Just haven't seen the need. And I am no light weight for body size.

The newest TLT6 will help some with all that having a rigid sole. For the most part I found any place I want to ski a TLT5 the Mtn will do as well as the Performance version. Not to imply they are the same because they aren't. And I like the added support of the P but find the mtn will generally do as well. Which was a surprise actually. My comparison here is with a tongue and power strapin place. The big difference for me was how the boots compared across the spectrum of uses without the tongues and power straps.

[timmaio]

Has someone used the TLT5(Mountain) on fat skis(like 110/120 underfoot)?Does the tlt5 ski well on them?

I have skied my TLT5M on a Hi5 and it definitely needs the tongue(I get away with no tongue on my 88 underfoot skis all the time no problem) and even then I find the ski overpowers the boot a bit. I'm looking for ways to beef up my boot this season for a new pair of powder boards.

Edit, I'm a very light guy, and have heard that heavier skiers don't have as much issue with the boot

[LeeLau]

Updating Mercury, TLT6, Maestrale RS and K2 Pinnacle even though only small sample sets just so those thinking of getting new boots have some guidance rather than none

[auvgeek]

I'm wondering whether the stiffness of Mercury and Maestrale RS is rated too low. That was done because there seemed to be consensus to have the Factor, Titan at a 100 and there also seemed to be consensus to have Mercury and Maestrale RS about the same. Anyone else have thoughts?

I guess I can weigh in. My opinions seem to be different than many people, and I've quit posting these types of reviews because being opinionated and in the minority is a volatile combination. I'm starting to sound like a broken record/patronizing dick by pointing out the obvious, but I think lower-leg anatomy makes a huge difference in how a boot skis, as well as skiing style, boot fit in general (some of the below boots had a larger shell fit than others), and body/ski size. As for me, I'm a medium-sized dude (5'11", 165#) driving a larger ski—stiff 191 PM Gear Fat. I have skinny calves and ankles with a C+ width forefoot. I'm used to skiing in stiff alpine boots and resort skis, and I'm relatively new to touring gear. I'm biased towards stiff boots with a progressive flex and stiff skis with a 30+ m turn radius. Your mileage WILL LIKELY vary, and I don't pretend the below statements are true for anybody but me.

That said, here's my take: I've skied few boots as stiff as the OG Cochise 120 + powerwrap. I think that boot (with top powerstrap buckled really tightly to deal with my skinny calves) was as stiff as my Scorpion 130s, stiffer than the Vulcan, and *much* stiff than the RS. IIRC, I seriously could not get the boot to flex at all at room temperature. The Vulcans I carpet-tested were stiff, but not over-poweringly so (caveat here is that we are talking about carpet testing, which is difficult to gauge, particularly because of the rockered sole on the Vulcan). I might rate the Cochise 120 as a 135-140 flex*, and the Vulcan a 120-125 (carpet only), and the RS a 100** (Scorpion 130 as 130-flex baseline). The RS simply is too soft for me, despite others saying they found it to flex quite stiff. It buckles on me when skiing fast or dropping stuff. I haven't skied the Titan or the Mercury, though, so I can't say much about the relative flex of those compared to the RS.

*I'll update these numbers if I can get my hands on another pair at some point to confirm if my memory is exaggerating the stiffness a bit.
**I added a WC booster strap and PW liner, and it still isn't anywhere close to a 120-130 flex boot. With the mods, I'd put it at maybe a 105 flex, so I'm not sure what that makes the original on my scale...maybe 95-100?.

Re TLT5: I found the metatarsal flex and excessive fwd lean to seriously degrade the skiing performance—again, YMMV, but my touring buddy independently drew the same conclusions after we both found deals on them late last season. The boot might flex at a 90 stiffness, but they skied much worse than that to me. I'm sure changing the fwd lean and locking out the met flex will change things. I realize this thread is about relative stiffness, not how well each boot skis for each person, but I'm finding it hard to separate the two in my mind/experience. On the other hand, some people say the boot skis much better than the stiffness would indicate because of excellent heel hold. Again, not my experience. I add these comments not because I think the TLT5 needs to be downgraded, just to offer some more insight into my perspective here so you may take it with whatever grain of salt you want.

Hope somebody finds this useful...

[Dry]

Updating Mercury, TLT6, Maestrale RS and K2 Pinnacle even though only small sample sets just so those thinking of getting new boots have some guidance rather than none

I've skied the BD Prime, and Dynafit Green Zzero C and TLT6 P, TLT5 P & Mtn. Plus the Scarpa RS

105 - Scarpa Maestrale RS
100 - Dynafit TLT6, Dynafit One PX
90 - Dynafit TLT5 Performance
85 - Dynafit TLT5 Mountain, Dynafit Zzero ("Green Machine") CF 4-buckle

my thoughts FWIW..

105 - Scarpa Maestrale RS, Dynafit Zzero ("Green Machine") CF 4-buckle
100 - Dynafit TLT6, Dynafit One PX
90 - Dynafit TLT5 Performance, BD Prime
85 - Dynafit TLT5 Mountain,

[GeezerSteve]

Re TLT5: I found the metatarsal flex and excessive fwd lean to seriously degrade the skiing performance—again, YMMV, but my touring buddy independently drew the same conclusions after we both found deals on them late last season. The boot might flex at a 90 stiffness, but they skied much worse than that to me. I'm sure changing the fwd lean and locking out the met flex will change things.

This is a red herring IMV. I agree that the stock forward lean of the early TLT5 was excessive for most skiers -- one way to put it is that the original stock TLT5 was "pre-collapsed," which is very much how it felt to me until I modded them more upright -- but Dynafit changed to a more upright option in later production runs and the early boots can be retrofitted per Dynafit replacement cuffs or DIY. All but one of the numerous TLT5 users I know have dialed them more upright, and it only makes sense to rate them the per the configuration nearly everybody skis them. So, I say leave the TLT5P at 90 and the TLT5M at 85, with the qualification that both of them are quite stiff laterally (assuming the P cuff rivet isn't crapped out).

Re pencil calves vs. big calves, I agree with much that you say. As I've said numerous times, my observation is that skinny legs correlates to a preference for stiff boots more than body mass does. Big calves correlate strongly with ball-of-foot skiing technique and, all other things being equal, BOF skiers can ski fore-aft softer boots, although IMO lateral stiffness is relatively more important for BOF skiers. As noted above, one of the limitations of this thread is that fore-aft and lateral stiffness are not segregated in the assigned numbers -- maybe not so important to a peglegger but likely a big deal to a big calved BOF skier.

Notwithstanding this limitation, Lee and the other contributors deserve lauds because the numbers are a very useful starting place for someone moving from lift-served to AT or from old school AT boots to modern AT boots, although I encourage each of them to read the comments and otherwise educate themselves re the outstanding lateral stiffness of some of the new lightweight touring boots.

[auvgeek]

This is a red herring IMV. I agree that the stock forward lean of the early TLT5 was excessive for most skiers -- one way to put it is that the original stock TLT5 was "pre-collapsed," which is very much how it felt to me until I modded them more upright -- but Dynafit changed to a more upright option in later production runs and the early boots can be retrofitted per Dynafit replacement cuffs or DIY. All but one of the numerous TLT5 users I know have dialed them more upright, and it only makes sense to rate them the per the configuration nearly everybody skis them. So, I say leave the TLT5P at 90 and the TLT5M at 85, with the qualification that both of them are quite stiff laterally (assuming the P cuff rivet isn't crapped out).

Agree on most of that, and I'm not advocating changing the flex index of the boot. But I will say that my buddy bought the new lean-lock bar and said it was barely noticeable. I tried his pair clicked into my skis on the carpet (punching, etc made it impossible to actually swap in the field), and would have to agree that it doesn't help as much as I hoped. I have a strong preference for more-upright boots (Mates modded the lean of my Scorpion 130s with a hydraulic press), so it could be that I just need a drastic DIY mod...like 6* less fwd lean. (It should also be noted that I have a 6 mm shim under the toes of my tech binders.) Again, this could very well be just my own personal preferences and have little to do with how the way the majority of people would enjoy the boot.

Agree with the rest of your post, particularly the last paragraph.