lasting numbness in toes after skiing all day? (boot fitter jong!)

**GordonShumway** · 02-25-2013, 05:50 PM

Hey guys,

The last couple of weeks I’ve been having a problem with my boots that I never used to have. After a few hours of skiing my toes on my left foot start to hurt and eventually go almost completely numb. Last week it was my big toe that went numb and the numbness lasted a few days. This week I went skiing Saturday and skied hard all day. All the middle toes are still numb and the numbness extends into the balls of my foot. This never used to happen so it’s a bit confusing why it’s starting now. Just reading around the internet it looks like I pinched/smashed a nerve and the feeling should come back, but obviously this isn’t good long-term.

Stats: boots are Lange Worldcup 130s with superfeet beds. Stock liners. I like the boots mostly but they’re stiff as f*ck. I’m wondering if getting some boot fitting work would help or whether they’re a lost cause. It seems like punching out the toe box would help but it could be something further up my foot that’s getting pinched which is causing my toes to go numb? Nothing really hurts when I put them on, i.e. no obvious pressure / hot spots. The first noticeable discomfort with them comes from the bottom of my foot. It feels like my arches cramp up, like the muscles in the bottom of my foot are constantly flexed and can’t relax. Any ideas?

I like the boots but sometimes I think they’re too stiff (especially in powder). I don’t race so I think I might not need as stiff of a boot. I’m also wondering if race boots like these have a different angle / pitch than an equivalent freeride boot? Sorry, I’m a boot jong- I’m talking about how far forward the boot is vs how ‘upright’ it is.

I guess I’m wondering out loud whether the issues is fixable, or whether I’d be better off saving the money from a boot-fitter and just buying new boots. And why would this happen when they’ve been mostly fine for the past 2 years?

**jwolter7** · 02-25-2013, 07:16 PM

This is not any easy one. It is strange that after two years it has changed so much.

How tight do you have to buckle the two lower buckles on the boot?
What about the upper two?
It could be that the overall volume of the boot is not enough and your foot is getting over compressed by the shell. Is the amount of buckle pressure needed to give you the feeling you want changed over time? Do you feel the foot rotate inside the shell?

Place your foot on a piece of paper and trace the outline of your foot. Take a photo of that and upload that photo. Foot shape can tell us a lot about what may be happening.

Have you modified the boot at all after you got it? What did you have done so far?

Any pain on the outside of the little toe? Any width problems? Do your know in mm how wide the widest part of your foot is?
I'm guessing width is not the main issue because you did not list that as a problem.

How many days do you have skiing in the boots overall, and this year so far?

How quickly do you feel the pain on an average day of skiing.
How many hours are you in the boot on an average day?

Have you gained any weight lately?
Have you had any injuries lately?

Pull out the cork footbeds and look at the heel from behind. Is the outside to inside of the heel a straight even line across the back, or is one side higher than the other?

Is the toe area flat under your toes, or are is there a toe crest molded into the insole?

Have you tried skiing in the boots with some other insole to see if the cork is the problem?

You can private message me the answers and I will try to help. I have been fitting custom boots for over 15 years.

**GordonShumway** · 02-26-2013, 06:07 PM

Thanks for the awesome reply. Here is an outline of my foot... looks very 'foot-like' to me ha ha

You asked about previous injuries... I did sprain my ankle playing soccer a while back and it's still not 100%. I didn't think that would effect my toes but maybe it does?

boots stay unbuckled all the time, except when I'm actually skiing. Every buckle is on the first notch and there's no slop. Any tighter and it feels too tight. I believe I've always been 'first notch' on these boots, dont think that's changed over time.

Boots are 100% stock except for the superfeet beds. I haven't changed anything on them. I didn't ski at all last year (injury to other ankle) and I've only been a few times this year. They probably have 30-40 days on them total.

I don't recall any pain in the outside of my foot or little toe, not sure how wide my foot is but I can measure later.

Pain builds over the course of the day, first appears maybe 1-2 hours in? Average day is probably 6 hours?

No weight gain.

I'll pull the beds later and reply to the other questions.

Thanks again for such a detailed reply, I really appreciate it!

**jwolter7** · 02-26-2013, 11:23 PM

Nothing all that strange with the shape of the base of your foot, you have a healthy arch it looks pretty normal. This is mostly a volume problem. Those boots can work with some simple modifications.

As always this may be the time to find a good fitter in your area. PM me again an I'll tell of some in your area. I have worked at ski resorts in Wyoming, Oregon, Colorado, California, Washington, Switzerland, and Utah. I know most of them.

If you can't buckle the boots at all (one the first catch and still too tight) when not skiing then the volume is most likely the problem. Adding cork footbeds into a tight fight can be a bit of a problem sometimes. Corks are fine custom insoles (I have made many over the years and they work well) but many times they are a bit too thick and cause the foot/instep to stand taller in the boot (which is what they are supposed to do when made right). But they cause volume problems more often than some other customs.

Your recent ankle injuries are most likely also a big reason why it is now so much worse than before. You may have scar tissue still left in the foot/ankle and that combined with too much shell compression over the instep (not being able to tighten buckles down) could block something more than it was before. That most likely is the cause of the current numbness problem.

Try taking the corks out and replacing with just a stock footbed from a shoe. It should be the same general size but thinner than the corks. By changing the thickness of the insole you can find out if the volume is really the primary cause of not being able to buckle the boots down.

A good fit should be too lose when the buckles are loosely fit, and then also too tight when over buckled. Then you can find the right buckle pressure by adjusting the buckle pressure so it is tight enough for good control of your skis, but not too tight to cause pain or uncomfortableness over the course of a long day.

I use the example of a racer who intentionally will over buckle his boots for the race course because you do get more control with a tighter fit. But he is only going to ski for less than one minute and then at the bottom of the course he will loosen those buckles and let the fluids flow again. You don't want that type of a fit for all day use especially in deeper snow conditions. All boots should be able to be buckled down past the first catch. If not the boot may be too low of a volume/too narrow and should be modified to provide more comfort.

If you are going to work in the boots more than four or five hours a day (many days in a row) then you really need the boot to fit right or you could cause long term problems for your feet (like bone growth in places you don't want it). That is called ossification (some people confuse it with calcification). It can happen at the width, the bunions, on the heel, and also on top of the foot. It is the foot trying to add strength where it needs more protection, or where friction from foot rotation is happening.

If you find some change when you lower the foot and reducing the arch support by inserting a thinner stock insole then:

1. I would grind down the underside of the cork and try it again. Grind small amounts until you get it right (you can buckle over the instep firmly without feeling the foot go to sleep after ten minutes). The cork can only take a few mm of thinning from underneath. If you need more than that you can also grind thinner the bootboard/zeppa under the liner in all Lange race boots. Your foot will most likely need both gridded thinner.

2.You can also grind out the are on under the arch where it extends out to the inside of the foot. This will reduce the firmness of the cork material and allow for some flexing of the tissue under the foot. You want semi-regid support not something that feels like a block under your foot. The more you reduce the medial arch angle (more of a sloping shape vs a 90 degree sidewall) to the cork under the arch area the softer it will feel under the foot. Again do a bit and try it until you find a better fit with your specific foot needs.

My Lange 130 fit like shit out of the box but when I get the boot fit for my specific foot then it is a thing of beauty. I can wear the boots all day long and don't even play with the buckles until its time to take them off.

Good boots need to be modified to fit right. A great fit starts with a good custom insole/orthotic to stop rotational movements normal to all feet. Then add a shell that is a bit too tight, then you adjust the shapes (modify the shell to match foot shape) until correct by stretching or grinding the shell material. Then lower (or raise) the foot volume until it is correct with medium buckle pressure. You thin the insert or the bootboard to add more volume.

I also use Conformable custom foam liners to match the shapes even better and take away all wasted rotational movements inside the boots. I like a Ferrari like fit and handling.

Once you find your perfect fit then every five years buy the same shell and do the same modifications to the new shell and you will never have boot problems again, and a race type of performance fit.

Ski Heil my friend.

**bbense** · 02-27-2013, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by GordonShumway

Pain builds over the course of the day, first appears maybe 1-2 hours in? Average day is probably 6 hours?

Not that I'm going to do any better than the previous replies, but I've always found that even in what I consider
perfect fitting boots, my feet hurt the first couple days. Taking a break around 2hrs and taking the boots off for
say 15 mins generally works wonders for me.

Just to cover all the obvious bases. Also, you're using the thinnest socks possible right? Most "ski" socks are far too thick for actual skiing.

Even if you haven't gained weight, if you've been inactive due to injury there will be small subtle changes in your foot shape. There are muscles in your feet and they need to be trained just as much as your quads.

Lastly, get softer boots for softer snow. You don't need the stiffness of race boots to ski well, you need the precise fit of race boots.

**GordonShumway** · 02-28-2013, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by bbense

Not that I'm going to do any better than the previous replies, but I've always found that even in what I consider
perfect fitting boots, my feet hurt the first couple days. Taking a break around 2hrs and taking the boots off for
say 15 mins generally works wonders for me.

Just to cover all the obvious bases. Also, you're using the thinnest socks possible right? Most "ski" socks are far too thick for actual skiing.

Even if you haven't gained weight, if you've been inactive due to injury there will be small subtle changes in your foot shape. There are muscles in your feet and they need to be trained just as much as your quads.

Lastly, get softer boots for softer snow. You don't need the stiffness of race boots to ski well, you need the precise fit of race boots.

I forget what sock I have but they're pretty thin ski socks. The first time my toes when numb I was wearing thin dress socks because I couldnt find my ski socks, so I don't think thickness is the issue.

I always thought having a snug fit on the first latch was a good thing but it sounds like there's not enough volume... I can't shave down my liners in there, I just checked and they're plastic (ie no cork to shave)... I'll try swapping them out for regular shoe liners and see if that helps? For boot fitting, how much should I budget? Thanks!

**bbense** · 03-01-2013, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by GordonShumway

I always thought having a snug fit on the first latch was a good thing but it sounds like there's not enough volume... I can't shave down my liners in there, I just checked and they're plastic (ie no cork to shave)... I'll try swapping them out for regular shoe liners and see if that helps?

You can sand plastic insoles. You can also try removing them altogether. Sometimes even just a few mm can make all the difference.

For boot fitting, how much should I budget? Thanks!

Find a ski town and find the "bootfitting guy", every ski town has one, ask around. Pay him whatever he wants, boots that actually fit are worth it.

I'd guess somewhere around $100 depending on what needs to be done to the boots/liners.

**Two06** · 03-01-2013, 05:14 PM

Holy shit you guys are overthinking this one. Go to surefoot get custom footbeds. If you wanna ball out get the liners too. But I guarantee you this will solve your problems or get close.