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Thread: Patent question
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02-24-2005, 07:23 PM #1
Patent question
So, is it possible to patent a product that is a combination of two products. For instance, say I discovered that skis work really great in powder with a surfboard fin on each. Could I patent a product, like the surf ski, that's just a combo of two products already out there? Could I, for instance, get skis from K2 and fins from FCS, install them and sell them as a patented product in and of themselves? Or, assuming a ski with a surf fin actually would work really great and everyone would want to buy some, could larger companies (K2, salomon, Volkl, etc) just do the same thing and market it themselves, rendering my invention financially worthless to me?
Trying to settle an argument at work. Thanks.ROBOTS ARE EATING MY FACE.
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02-24-2005, 07:31 PM #2
You wouldn't have to have the product in hand, just the schematics. Then you could sell the idea to a ski manufacturer, or any company selling skis with fins on the bottom would owe royalties.
Patents are about ideas, not necessarily finished rpoduct.
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02-24-2005, 07:34 PM #3glocal
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Goode already has one.
It's called a 'water ski'.
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02-24-2005, 07:43 PM #4Originally Posted by bossass
Originally Posted by bossass
..but this may all be wrong.
But patents are definitely not about ideas. Ideas cannot be patented. Things can be patented. But, ideas about things cannot be patented. I think that is what GeoMatt ment...
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02-24-2005, 07:53 PM #5
How about this? McConkey's water skis with bindings are a perfect example. Could he patent those? Waterskis aren't patented and ski bindings aren't patented, but could the combo be? Could the patent prevent Kidder, O'brien, Goode, etc from just getting their own ski bindings, mounting them and selling the product (assuming a good market for the product, it would be simple for these companies to just make a version of McC's ski themselves)
ROBOTS ARE EATING MY FACE.
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02-24-2005, 08:00 PM #6
it is not a bright line, but probably not. you can only patent something if it is non-obvious enough. the guy who put an eraser on the end of a pencil was not able to patent that - too obvious...but the guy that put the clear plastic window in an envelope so you can see the address through from the letter was able to patent that and made millions of dollars. he gave my university its main library.
pretty fucked up. the pencil/eraser dude must be really bitter.
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02-24-2005, 08:05 PM #7
Sweet!! A nerd thread.
Patents and registered designs etc are only as useful as you are willing/able to fight for them. A big company can afford to keep tabs on patent filings relevant to their field, use your idea and bury you with lawyers in trying to defend your patent. If you have a fantastic idea, keep it as closely held as possible and try to get the biz plan/financial support to blow it into the market hard with a patent filing secured near time of launch so you can get a strong foothold in the market established.
I kind of disagree with how gonzo says patents are for things, not ideas. "Things" are protected more by a "registered design" than a patent so no one can copy your ski exactly and sell it, quite easy to get around. Patents are for the "physical embodiment of an idea". He is quite right that a poorly drafted patent isn't worth the paper it's written on.
Below are some facts from the Canadian Patent Office: http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/c...html#section01 ( I expect it wouldn't be much different in the US)
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patents cover new inventions (process, machine, manufacture, composition of matter), or any new and useful improvement of an existing invention;
What can you patent?
Suppose you are the proud inventor of an electric door lock. How do you know if you can obtain a patent for it? There are three basic criteria for patentability.
First, the invention must be new (first in the world). Second, it must be useful (functional and operative). Finally, it must show inventive ingenuity and not be obvious to someone skilled in that area.
The invention can be a product (a door lock), a composition (a chemical composition used in lubricants for door locks), an apparatus (a machine for making door locks) or a process (a method for making door locks), or an improvement on any of these. Ninety percent of patents are, in fact, for improvements to existing patented inventions.
A patent is granted only for the physical embodiment of an idea—e.g., the description of a plausible door lock—or for a process that produces something saleable or tangible. You cannot patent a scientific principle, an abstract theorem, an idea, a method of doing business, a computer program, or a medical treatment.
Novelty, Utility, Ingenuity
Novelty To be granted a patent you must be the original inventor of your door lock (or the assignee of the inventor). And it must be the first such door lock in the world.
What's more, you cannot obtain a valid patent in Canada if your invention was made public before you filed the application. There is, however, a one-year exception. If you, or someone who learned of the invention from you, discloses it publicly, you can still file in Canada within the year following that disclosure. (This applies to Canadian patents, but not necessarily to foreign ones.)
Utility A valid patent cannot be obtained for something that doesn't work, or that has no useful function. If your door lock does not work, it will fail the utility test.
Ingenuity To be patentable, your invention must be a development or an improvement that would not have been obvious beforehand to workers of average skill in the technology involved. You can't offer an electric door lock that's merely a bit faster or stronger than others and that any door lock designer could easily come up with. Your door lock must elicit a "why-didn't-I-think-of-that" reaction from other designers in the field.
You may obtain a patent for an improvement to an existing patented invention, but keep in mind that the original patent may still be in force. Hence, manufacturing or marketing the product with your improvement would probably be an infringement. This situation is often resolved by agreement between the patentees to grant licences to each other.
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02-24-2005, 08:08 PM #8glocal
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I trust your fin will fold up when you get to the groomers and flats. Nonetheless........
The unique combination angle is great, but consider the cost of not only getting the patent, but also the cost of pursuing infringement poachers. It's a long ugly trail of wasted money. I'd focus on schmearing the market in one big season to get the capital to do the rest. Don't focus on big money issues unless you have big money to waste. Just make and sell like crazy right out of the gate.
edit: http://www.uspto.gov/
Go get 'em, bossass.
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02-24-2005, 08:12 PM #9Originally Posted by PulverSchwein
...and in the US, we call a "physical embodiment of an idea" a "thing"
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02-24-2005, 08:15 PM #10glocal
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Originally Posted by gonzo
You can get what are essentially registered designs here:
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ40a.html#general
edit: wrong file
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02-24-2005, 08:44 PM #11Originally Posted by gonzo
What it comes down to is you can't just say in a patent filing: here is my thing, here is it's shape and what it does. You basically say: here is my novel idea, and demonstrate it is new and ingenious, and not obvious to others in the field, and here is how the idea is generally transmogrified into a physical item that works. It's a much more generic protection against anyone creating another similar "thing" based on your idea. RDs can be bypassed easily with only minor changes to the "thing".
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02-24-2005, 08:52 PM #12glocal
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Speaking of registered designs...........
When scientists around the world started decoding DNA and putting it up on the internet in a sort of gesture to science and humanity, people started grabbing strings of the code and patenting them.
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02-24-2005, 09:18 PM #13
An interesting current case is Research in Motion (RIM) the company that makes Blackberry PDAs. Apparently some guy in Illinois was granted a patent for a device for email over a cellular network. It was a very vague patent that covered all email on cell networks with no specific design covered. I'm pretty sure the guy never developed the product but patented the concept or idea. I think it's a ridiculous patent but US courts don't. When RIM hit the US market they were hit with a lawsuit they are currently fighting.
They are proceeding to court but apparently fully recognize a payment will be made. The point of going to court is more to force all cards on the table to get the info to make a determination of what should be paid. Apparently they have $500 million set aside already for a portion of the payment.
I guess if you talk a patent judge/officer/board into granting it you're golden otherwise you're just another guy glueing erasers on to pencils.It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy
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02-24-2005, 11:32 PM #14Originally Posted by PulverSchwein
What it comes down to is you can't just say in a patent filing: here is my thing, here is it's shape and what it does. You basically say: here is my novel idea, and demonstrate it is new and ingenious, and not obvious to others in the field, and here is how the idea is generally transmogrified into a physical item that works. It's a much more generic protection against anyone creating another similar "thing" based on your idea. RDs can be bypassed easily with only minor changes to the "thing".If you have a problem & think that someone else is going to solve it for you then you have two problems.
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02-24-2005, 11:42 PM #15glocal
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I believe there's some info on global patents on the sites I posted for the US offices.
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02-25-2005, 01:21 AM #16
Look the other way please Ogre this gets nerd ugly.
Originally Posted by Snow Dog
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Known in US as a Chapter 1500 Design Patent: pdf file from USTPO Site
An excerpt:
Since a design is manifested in appearance, the subject matter of a design patent application may relate to the configuration or shape of an article, to the surface ornamentation applied to an article, or to the combination of configuration and surface ornamentation....
Distinction Between Design and Utility Patents
In general terms a "utility patent"protects the way an aricle is used and works while a "design patent" protects the way an article looks.
Both utility and design patents can be held against the same article.
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-Canadian CIPO website re Industrial Designs: Nerd link
What is an industrial design?
An industrial design is the features of shape, configuration, pattern or ornament (or any combination of these features) applied to a finished article made by hand, tool or machine. It may be, for example, the shape of a table or the shape and ornamentation of a spoon.
The design must have features that appeal to the eye and although the Industrial Design Office will not judge the aesthetic merit of those features, the Office will assess originality.
Patents are for new inventions or processes that offer innovative and useful functions. Canadian law regards the functional aspects and design aspects of articles quite separately. Therefore, you cannot list a function as an element of your industrial design. You may, however, be able to obtain a patent for your article's functional aspects and an industrial design for its aesthetic ones. Suppose you develop a new kind of folding chair. The way the chair folds, its lightweight construction, its strength and its durability are all functional qualities. The industrial design features could include the shape or configuration of the chair, and any patterns or ornamentation on it or any combination thereof.
Gucci purses don't get utility patents, not much happening in purse innovation these days beside shape/color. They need to hold design patents, the legal tool they try to use to protect their design against being knocked off. Atomic skis likely get utility patents for innovative technology in their ski and design patent for how the ski looks.
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02-25-2005, 01:22 AM #17Originally Posted by Snow Dog
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02-25-2005, 02:14 AM #18Registered User
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In theory, no. In practice few inspectors actually read the patents and now anything about whats written, and most corporate IP is vague changes that would be obvious to someone knowledgable in the art. At least that's my take on the 100's I've read. And your finned ski idea is taken.
Elvis has left the building
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02-25-2005, 09:25 AM #19Originally Posted by splatDaniel Ortega eats here.
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02-25-2005, 09:58 AM #20Registered User
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At least in the software world, there's kind of a "patent arms race" going on. If you're in a market with three or four other companies, you patent as much of your technology as you can using as vague terms as you can get away with. Since everybody in your marketspace is doing almost the same thing with a different implementation, if they try to sue you for infringement, you can throw down your patent portfolio and tell them to back off.
Here's an example from Microsoft...they've got a patent pending for the boolean operator IsNot.
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02-25-2005, 10:30 AM #21Donkey Puncher
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I hold patents on a number of designs/products:
The Electric Chair Toothbrush
Liquid Baby Powder
The Invisible Ink Copy Machine/Fax/Scanner/Printer
Canned Eggs(just the canning process actually)
The Computer Keyboard for Dyslexics scixelsyD rof draobyeK retupmoC ehT
I haven't made any profit(yet)
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02-25-2005, 10:34 AM #22Originally Posted by KeoniDaniel Ortega eats here.
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02-25-2005, 10:43 AM #23Originally Posted by bossass
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02-25-2005, 11:22 AM #24Originally Posted by PulverSchwein
Maybe they'll use it in Fear Factor.If you have a problem & think that someone else is going to solve it for you then you have two problems.
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02-25-2005, 11:53 AM #25Registered User
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Originally Posted by 365wp
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