Berthoud Pass 2012-2013 Observations, Conditions and Stoke

[Danno]

The "Front Range" is a big zone (as are all of the other zones they forecast for), and as evidenced this last week different areas can have WAY different problems. Some places in the "Front Range" zone got 2 to 3 inches over the previous week and some places got upwards of two feet. The problems that those amounts of snowfall present are going to be very different. A few weeks ago we were finding a substantial layer of buried surface hoar in RMNP that I have seen no evidence of at Berthoud. The conditions up in RMNP and around Cameron Pass are often very different from Berthoud and even more different from Pikes Peak which is also in the same zone. What would be unbelievable (albeit very unlikely, at least through the CAIC itself) is to get some sort of micro forecast like the Mount Washington Avalanche Center does in NH.

Truth is, even in one micro-zone the differences between areas just a mile apart can sometimes be dramatic. While a micro-forecast would be an improvement, we'd still have problems. And some of those problems might increase, as some people might become too reliant on the forecast because of its pinpoint nature, and maybe not do a proper risk assessment?

[skipowpow]

Are some of you saying you don't donate to CAIC to get the forecast in your email every morning.

[Foggy_Goggles]

I would like to think that a little bit of common sense would be sufficient to get the lay off the land. I'm all for additional resources and information but at what point does the expectation of having the data spoon fed too you create unrealistic expectations. Seriously, do people need a GPS to get from their car to the front door of the supermarket.

For those unfamiliar, this is the view from the parking lot (minus the chairlift).



Is it truly possible to accidentally find yourself above this cliff band on a bright blue sunny day? I'm seriously trying to exercise a little compassion for the victim, but if the real story is that after skiing either the roll, test slope, meadows area twice a route finding error was made leading to traversing above the west side cliff, I don't know how to feel.

[GoldenBear]

Are some of you saying you don't donate to CAIC to get the forecast in your email every morning.

The CAIC used to require a donation to receive daily email forecasts. In an effort to continue to provide a great service and get the information to everyone that wants it a decision was made to eliminate the donation requirement. You can now sign up to receive daily email forecasts for free on the CAIC's website.

Of course, donations are appreciated and often needed.

[simple]

Is it truly possible to accidentally find yourself above this cliff band on a bright blue sunny day? .

Yes it is truly possible.

[georgio]

Yes it is truly possible.

I can see how someone could end up above that cliff band thinking maybe it's the very top of lift gully if you aren't super experienced in the area... But I can't see how if they weren't planning on riding either Lift Gully or the Plunge they ended up there. It's no where near the meadows or the main west side runs.

[barrows]

I can see how someone could end up above that cliff band thinking maybe it's the very top of lift gully if you aren't super experienced in the area... But I can't see how if they weren't planning on riding either Lift Gully or the Plunge they ended up there. It's no where near the meadows or the main west side runs.

The facts are as stated in my post. She had no intention of riding Lift Gully, or The Plunge. The simple fact is that she was not paying enough attention to where she was, and made a left turn through the trees, and by the time she realized her mistake, she was over the roll. She had absolutely no intention of riding steep terrain alone.

[bobsdesk]

Huh? The daily forecast is out by 6am or so, usually. If later than that, only by 30 minutes or so. The weather forecast is out even earlier. All delivered conveniently to my email inbox. Why on earth are you using yesterday's forecast? An old roommate of mine was a forecaster there, he would be in the office by 4am to put out the forecast. I'm really not sure what you're saying.

Could they use more funding? Hell yeah! Nobody at the CAIC (or here) would likely disagree. Is Foggy's comment incorrect (" premier avi center distributing information in a timely fashion via multiple channels")? Nope. And I don't think Ethan or any of the forecasters at the CAIC would disagree with that, either.

I stand corrected. Today's front range forecast, posted at 550am. That's amazing, but that is not the norm in my experience 2009-2012. I've missed the forecast countless times because it was frequently published after 8am or 9am.

[barrows]

RE: the CAIC, I feel they do a great job with the resources which they have. With so much wind in the Front Range Zones it is impossible for an avy report to offer much more than some general guidlines, and expecting to be able to make good, safe, and fun decisions based primarily on an avalanche report is expecting too much. The snowpack in the Front Range zones is way to varied to generalize as to what might be a safer choice. The high wind levels prevalent here make the avy conditions vary tremendously with very slight changes in aspect and elevation. Micro analysis of conditions is necessary, on a run by run basis, and this has to be done by one's own party, rather than by relying on a generalized forecast.
I am not sure how much value, even with unlimited resources, the CAIC could add to their forecasts, ultimately, we must make our own evaluations on a slope by slope basis.

[bobsdesk]

The CAIC used to require a donation to receive daily email forecasts. In an effort to continue to provide a great service and get the information to everyone that wants it a decision was made to eliminate the donation requirement. You can now sign up to receive daily email forecasts for free on the CAIC's website.

Of course, donations are appreciated and often needed.

Sorry but I can't even figure out where to sign up for emails on the CAIC website...the site is a complete mess. I'm not sure how the design got to where it is now, but it needs to be completely redesigned.

This should probably be a new thread, sorry for repeatedly posting off topic.

[georgio]

The facts are as stated in my post. She had no intention of riding Lift Gully, or The Plunge. The simple fact is that she was not paying enough attention to where she was, and made a left turn through the trees, and by the time she realized her mistake, she was over the roll. She had absolutely no intention of riding steep terrain alone.

I'm not disagreeing, you definitely have the best first hand knowledge of what happened pre-slide. It can be easy to get turned around if you aren't familiar, I'm just surprised because she was way off where she thought she was. Mistakes happen, in the grand scheme of things this was a big mistake but ended up having relatively low consequences thankfully. When I headed over from the parking lot to search the area after I saw the tracks going into the slide and the size of the crown I was fully expecting for it to be a body recovery or best case critical injuries, and I'm incredibly happy that wasn't the case. I passed her sentiments along to Ali (my partner who stayed in communication with her while I worked with SAR). We're both REALLY happy she is alright.

[Danno]

Sorry but I can't even figure out where to sign up for emails on the CAIC website...the site is a complete mess. I'm not sure how the design got to where it is now, but it needs to be completely redesigned.

This should probably be a new thread, sorry for repeatedly posting off topic.

You need to create an account, should be pretty straightforward from there.

[Slaag Master]

after reading several pages here i am thankful for the utah avalanche center!!! hope things work out neighbors!!!!

[CG]

after reading several pages here i am thankful for the utah avalanche center!!! hope things work out neighbors!!!!

I for one hope the CAIC is one day able to provide the content that the UAC page does. I check out the blog daily for new entries.

[GoldenBear]

For anyone looking to receive daily forecasts you can create an account on the CAIC's webpage.

CG - There are many differences between the CAIC and the UAC. For one, Utah is pretty centralized. Colorado on the other hand is spread out. The CAIC is forecasting for 10 zones across the state. I am not discounting the UAC at all. I also enjoy their forecasting, reports, and blogs. In fact, I check their site daily, along with NWAC, Gallatin National Forest Avalanche Center, the Chugach National Forest Avalanche Center, and the Canadian Avalanche Center. I check all of these to see how these centers are relaying information to their users and how we might utilize some of what they use in terms of technology.

The CAIC is, in my opinion, one of the best forecast centers in the nation. Of course, I am biased. However, they operate on a strange budget and are the anomaly being state employees vs. federal. Additionally, The Friends of the Utah Avalanche Center operate with one full time employee and two part time employees. Now this is a great model and the Friends of CAIC are in dire need of moving in that direction.

All of that being said, avalanche forecasts are not around to provide "go" or "no go" answers. They are guidelines and information on what is happening in the backcountry. People need to be responsible for themselves and make their own decisions. If people decide they can't make decisions like that, then they need to hire a guide. The ski industry is pushing more and more people into the backcountry. With Denver being one of, if not, the largest single demographic for the industry, we will continue to see more and more people skiing Berthoud Pass, Loveland Pass, Vail Pass, Indian Peaks, RMNP, etc. without the gear, knowledge, or information.

It is my goal to change that. I am swimming upstream against an industry with amazing amounts of marketing dollars. However, the industry understands, for the most part, their responsibility as manufacturers to push education. This is a movement that won't be stopped on a online forum/facebook/newspapers/magazines. This is a problem that we as skiers, snowboarders, snowmobilers, magazines, movies, etc. need to attack together. This is a consumer driven movement in the industry and as an industry we have to make being educated cool and part of the equation.

[Slaag Master]

all valid points golden bear!!!!!!

[skipowpow]

Thanks for the clarification on the email subscription. I thought it strange when folks said their reports were delayed. I think they are quite timely.

[bobsdesk]

No one is asking for "go / no go" forecasts from the CAIC. No one.

That said, the CAIC website is the primary tool that the CAIC has to get information out to backcountry skiers, currently it's in shambles. I don't think it's a stretch to say that. Media basically doesn't function, there are boxes with random information everywhere...there's even a LINK to click to get to the mobile website. 5 lines of code can eliminate the need for a link to a mobile version.

So let's open this discussion up in the right forum - how can the CAIC improve their website? If that discussion starts, I'm willing to bet you'll find 20 programmers who are more than happy to donate their time and make it happen.

[georgio]

So let's open this discussion up in the right forum - how can the CAIC improve their website? If that discussion starts, I'm willing to bet you'll find 20 programmers who are more than happy to donate their time and make it happen.

Count me in the group that would be happy to help. Trying to submit observations I've run into numerous problems/bugs and tried to report them and offered to help debug them and never heard back.

[Danno]

I don't happen to find their website "in shambles" at all.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Well said Jack Nicklaus. What I was trying to say but didn't.

To recap: We had what can only be described as a shit show, or what I like to call circus factor 10, at The Pass this weekend.

SAR was dispatched multiple times
multiple parties sent high consequence lines in avalanche danger described as CONSIDERABLE
disagreement exists at to whether people were doing there best to help each other in rescue situations
IMO, we are lucky no body died

In asking, "what can be done" the response is that:

We need a better avalanche center website with more timely updates

Denver's a big place, BC skiing is popular, more people = more jackasses

Mistakes get made nobody's perfect

If collectively that's all we've got, I'm pretty uncertain about the future. I'm not a doomsdayer nor alarmist but the current situation is not sustainable. Hopefully the past weekend was an anomoly. But make no doubt about it, if the counties of Clear Creek and Grand, the respective SAR units, the FS, staties, Life for Life etc. keep having to dispatch to The Pass, things will change.

Having sat in multiple meetings with these entities over the years, I'll tell you that "tax payers have the right to go backcountry skiing where ever and whenever they want" is not the underlying attitude. What would it take to get the area shut down?

[marshalolson]

how about skiing the BC is like having a hunting or fishing license.

no avy1 license, and in advent of rescue, you pay for the services.

[georgio]

how about skiing the BC is like having a hunting or fishing license.

no avy1 license, and in advent of rescue, you pay for the services.

That's a pretty interesting thought... A "powder hunting" license, to protect our scarce powder supply. Doesn't a fishing license cover you for rescue costs though? I don't even know if a full Avi 1 class "should" be required if it was to go down that path but maybe some type of awareness seminar like FOBP offers. That would at least set the bar somewhere higher than it is now.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Somebody like Summit with SAR insight can probably add more info, but my understanding of SAR in Colorado is as follows:

Hunting licences, fishing licences, snowmobile & boat registrations, hikers cards and the like have an included fee that is distributed some how to the search and rescue entities. The SAR teams are generally run by the county sheriff offices. While it is possible for the SAR departments to charge for rescue, it is very rare that this occurs. The marketing tells you that the fee you pay through the above license makes you less likely to be charged but is in no way SAR insurance.

[killclimbz]

The SAR Cards that you can buy at REI (and other places) put you in a registry that is SAR has to come out an help your ass they will get money from the fund at the end of the year. I believe that is how it works. Regardless, they do get reimbursed for their expenses through that fund at some point or points during the year. Hunting and Fishing licenses are included this fee. You do not have to have the card with you to prove you are on the list. If you don't have a SAR card, go get one. It's something like $3 a year or $12 for five. Well worth the money spent.

I don't think there is any search and rescue operation in Colorado that is going to charge for their services. It would take some idiocy far beyond what happened this weekend for them to consider doing that. They do not want someone to hold off on calling them because they are afraid of getting billed. More tragic results can happen with that line of thinking.