Gereral AT binding thoughts

**CaliBrit** · 10-11-2012, 12:01 PM

So really enjoying all the AT bindings that are coming out and a few observations that I thought deserved it's own thread. People love dynafit, I have them and I do. One thing that is really great is the stride. It feels right, not on your toes like dukes etc. I personally would be fine in picking up some weight for some extra strength and it not being quite so dynafiddly. With the view to having the confidence to ride it as my single binding for everything. But one thing I think is key is the stride.

Fritschi did a cool thing with the Freeride Pro they moves the pivot point 29mm back, and now it is much more in line with there a tech binding pivot is, lower of course. You don't see this mentioned allot. All the new offerings don't really seem to move away from the Duke pivot point and that is a shame. It is a shame that the Fritschi is so flexy.

Another key point for me is not the biding weight, but the weight that lifts with your heel. It is this area that I think the Marker Tour makes a bigger difference over the Duke than the weight, allot of the weight savings are in the heel and hence most of that saving directly translates to the heel lift weight. I think the Fritschi heel is good in this respect as well.

So what I am looking for is a good stride, with a lighter heel, but still not a huge step in response from a alpine binding. In short, I don't think it exists.....but I am excited for this reason. With BD purchase of Fritschi I think we will see a binding with the same design philosophy as that of the factor. Increasing the stiffness from the Freeride Pro, while keeping the stride pivot in a good place and a relatively lightweight heel would really be a great binding.

Anyway interested to see what others think, the current offerings still don't light my fire.

**jondrums** · 10-11-2012, 08:18 PM

I think there is a lot of room for advancement in a hybrid between tech toes and alpine style bindings. The main problem I see is that there isn't a lot of creativity going on: the binding manufacturers have learned that the real market it "posers" rather than people who actually tour. That was proved by the number of people who bought dukes, but don't know what skins are.

There are pockets of innovation: MFD, and lars' creation are great examples.

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Hugh Conway · 10-11-2012, 08:21 PM

The main "problem" for advancement is getting boot manufacturer buyin. Boot molds are expensive; boot sales are relatively low. FFS it's like beacons or any other piece of touring gear - the volume is small. So if you want the problem isn't "posers" the problem is there aren't many people who actually tour.

MFD is the same rehashed touring plate idea that's been around for decades. Lars idea looks like an abortion and neither are at all worthwhile. The Trab binding was interesting <- see point 1 for problems.

Hugh Conway · 10-11-2012, 08:31 PM

Oh, not sure where the BD buying Diamir idea came from

**nickel** · 10-11-2012, 09:17 PM

I agree with much of what you said, but priorities are different. For me, the advantages of tech are many. Low stack height, stiff boot-ski interface, no binding lifting during uphill, more natural stride. Stiffness during skiing is probably the most important to me, followed by stack height, followed by pivot position, followed by weight.

A tech binding with a din to 14 or 16 (for real too, not just labelled that way!) in the heel AND toe, would make me a pretty happy guy. I don't personally see a need for a more comprehensive binding revolution than that.

In terms of a binding for daily use, something with the stack height and (theoretical to me) stiffness of a guardian, and a flat touring position, would be the bees knees. I would be happy with that for a daily driver. A better pivot point would be a bonus, as would lower weight if it's for a do everything binding.

Hugh Conway · 10-11-2012, 09:20 PM

I think/guess/hypothesize once you get to a "real" tech binding DIN 14 or DIN 16 you'd need to start refining the design of the tech fitting and increasingly the durability of it and reinforcing it's mounting in the boot to be effective.

**toast2266** · 10-11-2012, 09:37 PM

I've found that there's an inherent issue with the boots. Not so much the interface with the binding, but more just the fit of the boot. If I really want to ski hard, I want a tight alpine fit. That fit, however, is pretty damn uncomfortable on any kind of somewhat long tour, regardless of what binding I have and what sort of walk mode I have on my boot. For me, it's not really the binding technology that's holding me back from having a quiver of one, it's that I want a different boot fit for inbounds alpine skiing and for touring.

**Climber Joe** · 10-12-2012, 08:32 AM

Someday, very soon... and by that I mean this season, someone... and by that I mean Salomon, will come out with a custom shell stiff touring option... Perfect fit, comfy uphill, tada! But seriously, the new Salomon quest max 120 fits the bill. BTW, it skis great.

http://www.salomon.com/us/product/quest-max-120.html

**Climber Joe** · 10-12-2012, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Climber Joe

Someday, very soon... and by that I mean this season, someone... and by that I mean Salomon, will come out with a custom shell stiff touring option... Perfect fit, comfy uphill, tada! But seriously, the new Salomon quest max 120 fits the bill. BTW, it skis great.

http://www.salomon.com/us/product/quest-max-120.html

And... I just realized Salomon no longer offers a Tech sole for the Quest... probably something to do with a certain incident...

**TahoeJ** · 10-12-2012, 10:30 AM

^^^ Yep, the only swappable sole boots in that class (i.e. not strictly AT boots) are the Tecnica Cochise line. Really surprised the Lange XT 130's didn't offer the same.

**nickel** · 10-12-2012, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

I think/guess/hypothesize once you get to a "real" tech binding DIN 14 or DIN 16 you'd need to start refining the design of the tech fitting and increasingly the durability of it and reinforcing it's mounting in the boot to be effective.

These are very good points that I hadn't previously considered. That said, this would be a new standard I could get behind and buy into. Yes I know, small market segment blah blah... A guy can dream/hope.

Originally Posted by toast2266

I've found that there's an inherent issue with the boots. Not so much the interface with the binding, but more just the fit of the boot. If I really want to ski hard, I want a tight alpine fit. That fit, however, is pretty damn uncomfortable on any kind of somewhat long tour, regardless of what binding I have and what sort of walk mode I have on my boot. For me, it's not really the binding technology that's holding me back from having a quiver of one, it's that I want a different boot fit for inbounds alpine skiing and for touring.

I modded my scarpa skookums pretty heavily based on some of hoji's titan mods. It made a big difference. I personally find adequate lateral stiffness, decent forward stiffness, and excellent heel hold to be of utmost importance. Tight fit less so. Removable tongue for room and reduced stiffness is also key. Based on this, when the time comes, I would not hesitate on vulcans/mercurys. It was worth the time and effort to mod my boots, I'll say that much!

**eshed** · 10-13-2012, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by TahoeJ

^^^ Yep, the only swappable sole boots in that class (i.e. not strictly AT boots) are the Tecnica Cochise line. Really surprised the Lange XT 130's didn't offer the same.

Especially considering that dynastar/lange will be selling dynastar branded Plums this year, so I heard from the rep. Not in the states though, due to the lack of brakes.

**bendtheski** · 10-13-2012, 02:52 PM

I thought this boot looked interesting http://www.dalbello.it/us/product-kr_two_core_i_d-7887 in addition to the touring options in Dalbello's line. Alpine boot with a replaceable vibram sole. I think I know where I'm headed for my next boot purchase; doesn't hurt that I have a dalbello foot.

**Driver** · 10-14-2012, 05:24 PM

Too much "side country" stuff on the market relative to the number of people who actually tour. The bubble will burst.

**gregL** · 10-14-2012, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Driver

Too much "side country" stuff on the market relative to the number of people who actually tour. The bubble will burst.

Either that or the people who rarely tour will buy the stuff and be perfectly happy with it.

**adrenalated** · 10-14-2012, 08:11 PM

I would love to see the same ease of use of the Freeride Pro redesigned into a binding with two rails (and therefore more lateral stiffness). This would be a great touring binding for someone that doesn't want the fiddle factor of tech bindings, and it's easier to get the high DIN in a frame design.

Keeping the rearward pivot point and smooth stride does require that the binding have a lot of stack height though. Without the stack height, the front of the binding hits the ski unless you move the pivot forward.

**XXX-er** · 10-14-2012, 08:47 PM

I put a G3 25mm binding shim under a 3 pin binding, skied it with a leather boot I couldn't feel the difference and I didn't get any nose bleeds

I gotta ask whom could tell the differences in stack height in a blind test ?

**LeeLau** · 10-14-2012, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by gregL

Either that or the people who rarely tour will buy the stuff and be perfectly happy with it.

Greg is right. Many people will buy touring bindngs "just in case". They will also buy packs with shovel holders on the outside or other ridiculous accoutrements and be perfectly happy to ghey it up in the liftlines "just in case".

**TahoeJ** · 10-14-2012, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Driver

Too much "side country" stuff on the market relative to the number of people who actually tour. The bubble will burst.

I disagree. And "side country" boots have plenty of use inbounds at many resorts where hiking is extremely common. I've seen hundreds of people hiking some mornings on the HT at Alpine Meadows, for example. Is a walk mode necessary? No, but it sure doesn't hurt.

**nickel** · 10-15-2012, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by adrenalated

I would love to see the same ease of use of the Freeride Pro redesigned into a binding with two rails (and therefore more lateral stiffness).

When I owned a pair of flexi freerides, I felt pretty strongly that the flex originated from the pivot point. It's rather flimsy metal with pretty un-burly pivots (rivets if my memory still works...) so I'm not sure dual rails would change much. FWIW I cracked the lower half of the pivot assembly (the part rigidly mounted to the ski). I broke it while skiing, not skinning.

Originally Posted by XXX-er

I gotta ask whom could tell the differences in stack height in a blind test ?

Me, for one. I don't buy into this idea that you can't tell the difference. Maybe you don't care, but that doesn't mean you can't tell a difference. Mind you, you're talking about tele so maybe once you free the heel, you lose all perception of heigh/connectedness with the ski/your mind/reality.

I'm not saying it's important to everyone, but with added stack heigh (especially the 36mm of a duke) you get added leverage, delayed response from edge to edge, and IME, a more disconnected feeling in powder. That last one is very subjective though, I'll admit.

**XXX-er** · 10-15-2012, 09:23 AM

no I was pretty sober back then but in any case I did wonder if I would feel stack height as i was mounting them up but I seriously couldn't tell the difference and this was with wimpy leather boots which should give me more feel not big honking plastic boots which I would expect to isolate any feeling

I tried a FR on the same ski that I had mounted a mid-level alpine binding to and I agree the feeling was more vague but is that due to stack height or the wimpyness of the FR+ ?

did you actualy blind test ski the same ski back to back alpine binding with/without a riser, that is the only way to prove ?

**CaliBrit** · 10-15-2012, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by TahoeJ

I disagree. And "side country" boots have plenty of use inbounds at many resorts where hiking is extremely common. I've seen hundreds of people hiking some mornings on the HT at Alpine Meadows, for example. Is a walk mode necessary? No, but it sure doesn't hurt.

This I agree with, my next request is for an alpine binding, with no vision or trade off to touring that takes an alpine boot. Dukes etc fit the bill but we could cut the price to regular alpine bindings.

**CaliBrit** · 10-15-2012, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by nickel

Me, for one. I don't buy into this idea that you can't tell the difference. Maybe you don't care, but that doesn't mean you can't tell a difference. Mind you, you're talking about tele so maybe once you free the heel, you lose all perception of heigh/connectedness with the ski/your mind/reality.

I honestly never really notice. And being that I notice a huge difference between mount points on the same ski of just 1cm then it is interesting that this is a big factor for you.

Hugh Conway · 10-15-2012, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by LeeLau

Greg is right. Many people will buy touring bindngs "just in case". They will also buy packs with shovel holders on the outside or other ridiculous accoutrements and be perfectly happy to ghey it up in the liftlines "just in case".

How's that different than now?