Thread: shitty snow in AZ

snowmaking with sewer water

I find it odd that is being continually called it sewage, even though by definition grey water, is waste water that is not sewage.

Originally Posted by telemike

snowmaking with sewer water

Awe shit! Well this has been going on for a very long time. The article really makes the already political drama that much thicker. Lot's of contradictory aspects involved, ins and outs, new things coming to light.......blah blah blah. That reclaimed waste water is used every where, your city parks, golf courses, and even drinking water in some areas. Does that make it safe? I have know fucking idea. This fight has been fueled by the Sierra Club joining with the tribes. There are traditional natives that really care about the stated concerns and then there is their Nation government that does things that they see fit for profit. For instance, the White Mountain Apache Tribe uses reclaimed waste water on another sacred mountain according to their beliefs where they own and run the Sunrise Park Ski area. The Sierra Club joined something like 13 tribes to go into this battle, all claim it is a sacred sight. Currently the Navaho Nation is planning to build a gondola down to the confluence of the Little Colorado into the Grand Canyon. This is a sacred place to the Hopi, so are the Peaks where Snowbowl is. The confluence is an area of creation for the Hopi as is the Peaks for the Navaho. The Hopi believe the Peaks are where the Kachinas remain for most of the year and the Kachinas are responsible for the weather and crop fertility? I think it's something like that but it's not my religion so I'm not really sure. I have also been told by a Navaho that any place of Earth is sacred and that they actually pull that card when they can to hurt other interests (I won't write what I think that actually means but you can figure it out) and can result in benefiting them. If Snowbowl becomes a well run and successful weekend destination op it will really hurt the Apache owned Sunrise Park. The truth is Snowbowl won't survive without snowmaking, the Sierra Club and other environmental groups and concerns has them forced to use wastewater as not to waste clean drinking water, a real and legit issue anywhere with the current climate shift but especially so here in the south west. I find this interesting since every home owner down in the valley is using that clean drinking water to have their own green patch of grass next to their air conditioned house, pool, and just washed Hummer. A lot of these same people I bet are the kinds of folks that sit on the Sierra Club board and are major leaders in these fights. The drinking water we use her in Flag and other towns here in N. AZ. is 100 year old snowmelt off the Peaks. That is how long it takes to percolate through the Earth down to the water table we use for our drinking water. Some say a concern is that using the treated water could pollute this snow melt drinking water with hormones and other chemicals from pharmaceuticals and who knows what else. A holding pond for the treated water is being created right now, the wildlife will obviously be attracted to this water source especially during very dry periods like we get in June before the Monsoon rain storms begin. They weren't named the Sierra Sin Agua by the Spaniards for nothing, it's real dry up there at times. Ok, there is a bit of an inside observation from a somewhat non opinionated local.

I do know that I want a ski area here, my 5 year old daughter loves it and I want to keep her going, I sure can't afford family ski trips to major resorts. I believe that there are still some traditional natives that care about sacred sights and preserving their religious beliefs but there is also a large number that don't give a fuck about that anymore and are using the Sierra Club and religion card to screw over who and what they can. Of course a liberal based newspaper like NYT will jump all over a story like this, it tugs at the heart of every white urban dwelling liberal that doesn't have any clue what is really going on and feels guilty about our history and just got finished watching Dances With Wolves or fucking Avatar.

The Sierra Club is SO FULL OF SHIT. Had to let that out. A.D.D. moment.

NYTimes is garbage, and that headline is proof. That "sewage" water is the highest grade reclaimed available, A+, which is actually higher than what the golf courses and parks use for irrigation (as well as the grade B water Sunrise uses along with lake water for their snowmaking).
Also, after the reclaimed wastewater is treated, it is dumped into the Rio De Flag river, which feeds the Coconino Aquifer. From there it is then pumped out, cleaned again (but now can be called potable because it passed thru an aquifer) and is delivered out the kitchen sink faucets of Flagstaff. So any concerns they have with using it for snowmaking are absurd, and should cause them to protest dumping it into the drinking water supply, which has been going on for decades. And hell, natural precipitation snow isn't exactly Aquafina clean..

This battle was never about religion, or health concerns.. it's always been about business competition, Snowbowl vs Sunrise. And to help feed the hysteria, the tribes used some college town kids who view showing up at a protest as making a fashion statement. Now that they lost, the Flagstaff protest fashion statement kids should go protest on the rez, and be upset about the rampant alcoholism, unemployment, shitty roads, tribal government corruption and generally squalid living conditions. And oh yeah, Sunrise sucks.

Reminds me of when Killington started doing that 20+ years ago. Loved the old bumper stickers floating around back then.

Killington, where the affluent meet the effluent.

Come on now, given all the other applications this water is being used for snowmaking should not be an issue. It sounds like the religious card is being used since it suits somebody. I hate to say it, but it sounds like they better have a 24/7 security team up there to make sure nothing happens.

Originally Posted by wolfelot

Come on now, given all the other applications this water is being used for snowmaking should not be an issue. It sounds like the religious card is being used since it suits somebody. I hate to say it, but it sounds like they better have a 24/7 security team up there to make sure nothing happens.

They do.

"it's Dumping out" just took on a more literal meaning down there.

Taking a dump is the new snowmaking. 'I'm going to the can to make it snow.'

Not much to add, RaisingArizona and Tripice pretty much got it right.

Fuck the NYT. Plain to see where their bias lies (which is surprising since it's owned by NewsCorp.)

To keep calling the water to be used for snowmaking "sewage" is just plain false. The Times, and even some of the local opponents, continue to use this term simply pour gas on the flames to serve their own purposes. The water that comes out of the treatment plant is A+ reclaimed water. Fact. A+ does not contain turds, tampons, piss, or food waste. This is the vision they want you to have. A+ is nearly clean enough to drink, though not approved (yet) by AZ State of Environmental Quality.

Here's a couple things I'd have to add.
--The Peaks cover roughly 77,000 acres. AZ Snowbowl's permit covers about 777 acres, and snowmaking is to be done on about 77 acres. You do the math. The mountain is big enough to accomdate everyone.
--“It’s a disaster, culturally and environmentally,” said Taylor McKinnon of the Center for Biological Diversity. Environmental disaster? This simply has not been proven. Period. Cultural disaster? The Tribes will go on living just as they have done for centuries. There is literally NO ONE actively trying to supress the practice of native religions and ceremonies. The Tribes will always have unfettered access to The Peaks for their purposes.
--"When it melts, it “could degrade water quality of the aquifers,” said Rob Smith, regional staff director at the Sierra Club." Not true. Flagstaff has been putting surplus reclaimed water back into the ground for decades. It's a method called aquifer recharge, and has not been shown to degrade the aquifer and is common across the country.

And my lady asks why I don't want to move to Flag. Love Snowbowl, sucks in a low snow year when they open for a week. Here's hoping heads will be removed from rectums and artificial snow will fall.

Originally Posted by Shred Baron

I find it odd that is being continually called it sewage, even though by definition grey water, is waste water that is not sewage.

You don't pee in the shower? Pipes are pipes! /George Costanza

Sent from my cell phone. no, a cell phone.

Originally Posted by Flounder

Reminds me of when Killington started doing that 20+ years ago. Loved the old bumper stickers floating around back then.

Killington, where the affluent meet the effluent.

For some reason rich people must like shitty snow.

The Yellowstone Club, which has very limited access to water, buys Big Sky's sewage and uses it for both snowmaking in the winter and watering their golf course in the summer.

http://www.lonepeaklookout.com/news/...cc4c03286.html

I love it. Keeps my water and sewer bill low, plus I get the satisfaction that when I drop a duece and flush it, the next winter Oprah Winfrey, Bill Gates, and a bunch of Wall Street bankers will be skiing on my turd.

Originally Posted by Harry

For some reason rich people must like shitty snow.

AZ Snowbowl may be a lot of things, but we who ski there are most certainly not rich. The above posters who also ski there will vouch for that. We just want a consistent ski area.

Originally Posted by ricorides

AZ Snowbowl may be a lot of things, but we who ski there are most certainly not rich. The above posters who also ski there will vouch for that. We just want a consistent ski area.

I was just going along with the Killington bumper sticker.

Bottom line: AZ Snowbowl is wanting to do something that other ski areas are doing. I don't have a problem with it.

That article is pretty LOL. To be expected though, anything by the NYTimes comes up short on facts and heavy on bias.

Well this is good news for me, since Snowbowl will be my "local" mountain this winter. Seems like a much better option than Sunrise (from phx). Hopefully this snowmaking can produce a nice sticky base layer. How is the skiing up there anyway? 250 inches can't be that bad...certainly has to be better than the East, right??

Originally Posted by donkeykong

That article is pretty LOL. To be expected though, anything by the NYTimes comes up short on facts and heavy on bias.

Well this is good news for me, since Snowbowl will be my "local" mountain this winter. Seems like a much better option than Sunrise (from phx). Hopefully this snowmaking can produce a nice sticky base layer. How is the skiing up there anyway? 250 inches can't be that bad...certainly has to be better than the East, right??

I live in Phoenix and get a season pass, drive up 165 miles each way every single weekend, and some ditch day powder days. The mountain is a special place to me. It doesn't have the total acreage to make it a bigger name in the snow world, but there is 2000 ft of vert (or more if you hike) and some excellent lines. The trees are mostly tight but there are some key areas that you can rip. During good conditions lift lines can get long on the weekends (stupid long during really good weekends, but the singles line moves faster) But the inbounds is a very small part of the entire mountain range..

Reclaimed water is used as a portion of snowmaking water all over the world, and I'd be surprised if the claim that AZSB would be the first to use it 100% is actually true. The US Forest Service (you know, the guys who really get the final call, since it's public land) decided the pipeline for reclaimed water would be a better solution than oh say, drilling a well into the water table. And snowmaking is only the first step, you can see the whole expansion plan on their site.

And yes, haters gonna hate. But that's fine with me.

Pretty good use for reclaimed water if you ask me. With the newer treatment technologies RW is "healthier" than drinking a diet coke. The only reason they specify it differently is if some aspect of the treatment process failed there could be huge consequences.

Fuck that fucking fuck Benally. RaisingArizona and Rico have it right. Maybe the next piece of equipment he chains himself to will have the e-brake slip.

Originally Posted by donkeykong

That article is pretty LOL. To be expected though, anything by the NYTimes comes up short on facts and heavy on bias.

Well this is good news for me, since Snowbowl will be my "local" mountain this winter. Seems like a much better option than Sunrise (from phx). Hopefully this snowmaking can produce a nice sticky base layer. How is the skiing up there anyway? 250 inches can't be that bad...certainly has to be better than the East, right??

When we get some decent storms lined up and a real base builds we have incredible side country skiing, quick tours on the frontside and legit back country and long all day tours in high alpine terrain. We have an open boundary policy and there is almost no one out skiing the steeps after a storm and getting the fresh. It's over 100,000 acres of wilderness and maybe around ten dedicated locals who ski tour. The ski area is ok but of you love scary steeps and rocks there isn't much within the area, you have to work for it.

Here's some links

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kgs9...6&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIGrC51g148

http://azdailysun.com/news/opinion/e...6b7c63ef4.html

Last season was my first at Snowbowl after moving here to do a grad program on snow research.

The hill is pretty cool when there's good storms, and from what I gather last season was slightly lacking. There were some really good days though, helps to live north of Flag and be able to get up there in 30 minutes. There are a lot of trees, and a lot of rocks - I got some nasty core shots. I'm used to riding in the PNW and while it is much different, the mountain definitely is worth it with snow.

All this protesting business seems kind of out of hand especially given some of the other uses for reclaimed water as posted above. I'll bet many that are against snowbowl using reclaimed water don't know other common uses for effluent below A+

Originally Posted by rainier

Last season was my first at Snowbowl after moving here to do a grad program on snow research.

The hill is pretty cool when there's good storms, and from what I gather last season was slightly lacking. There were some really good days though, helps to live north of Flag and be able to get up there in 30 minutes. There are a lot of trees, and a lot of rocks - I got some nasty core shots. I'm used to riding in the PNW and while it is much different, the mountain definitely is worth it with snow.

All this protesting business seems kind of out of hand especially given some of the other uses for reclaimed water as posted above. I'll bet many that are against snowbowl using reclaimed water don't know other common uses for effluent below A+

Do you tour? And......it get's much MUCH better than last year. Hopefully this year you can experience it with some real base.

Originally Posted by RaisingArizona

When we get some decent storms lined up and a real base builds we have incredible side country skiing, quick tours on the frontside and legit back country and long all day tours in high alpine terrain. We have an open boundary policy and there is almost no one out skiing the steeps after a storm and getting the fresh. It's over 100,000 acres of wilderness and maybe around ten dedicated locals who ski tour. The ski area is ok but of you love scary steeps and rocks there isn't much within the area, you have to work for it.

Here's some links

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kgs9...6&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIGrC51g148

That's awesome, can't wait. I plan on heading up frequently, whenever it's good every sun-tues this winter. I have touring and avy gear but short on experience. Are there any good mellower zones with low avi danger that I can bring my dog?