Thread: Basic climbing equipment for AT

Missed a few exciting couloirs last season because of access - nothing really gnarly but you'd want a rope involved.

What is the basic climbing equipment you'd want for theese situations? No "real" climbing involved but might involve a short rappell/belay.

Atc, prusik cord, harness, some cord for your anchor that you don't mind leaving behind once you are in. At least one locking carabiner. Rope, you shouldn't need a dynamic cord for this. Experience rappelling in "safe" situations. I'm probably missing some things.

Get a nice small harness and a belay device. If there are no existing anchors you'll be building your own, so add cord/webbing and whatever your local rock type likes to eat. For a skiing rope I like skinny as possible, 7.whatever. I use a 60m cut in half so my buddy can enjoy carrying a rope too. 30m is nice for glacier slogging too.

Anchor hardware if nothing natural is available (screws, chocks etc), perhaps crampons.

You talking about going up or just rappelling in? Different sets of equipment.

Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

You talking about going up or just rappelling in? Different sets of equipment.

This.

If your climbing and not going top down you hopefully already know (roughly) what you need to climb safety. Bring extras since there is no gear shop halfway up a route. Godd news is, If you run out of gear, getting back down is straight forward. (most times)

Top down is a different animal and where you can really get yourself into trouble without the right gear. Being familar with the route and area can let you cut down on gear but is not a fail safe.

I usually have a 30m 8mm dynamic line, a set of stoppers, a screw or 2 and a Vthread tool, Couple slings and acc. cord, Harness/belay device/biner on familiar routes with very short raps.

Anything with longer/unknown distance raps or possibly multiple raps the kits grows alot and includes prussiks, more and different rock pro, more webbing/acc. cord, More screws, more rope, a daisy chain, sometimes you get lucky enough to have to bring a whole trad rack

Have fun and learn how to build anchors/lead/rapel/etc in a safe, close to the road place. The alpine is no place to try and figure it out.

Edit: You also probably want crampons and an ice ax or ice tool(s) but I assume yuo already knew that.

re: crampons in the PNW

ski crampons?
or boot crampons?
which would you buy first for best value?

The usual step would be from boot packing with ski poles to climbing unroped with crampons and an ice axe. The next step would usually be roped climbing with a mix of running belays and belayed pitches. After that things turn into more mountaineering than ski mountaineering. If you have the skills, you already know what you need. If you don't...

Originally Posted by acinpdx

re: crampons in the PNW

ski crampons?
or boot crampons?
which would you buy first for best value?

I'm a Jong when it comes to the more serious mountaineering stuff (I'm interested to see where this thread goes...) but I'll answer this.

Ski Crampons: These allow you to skin in somewhat marginal conditions. Basically, really firm snow/ice where you might not get enough traction with just skins. There have been times on windswept ridges where I've really wished I carried ski crampons.

Crampons: These let you boot up in firmer conditions where you wouldn't want to post-hole with just ski boots. The crampons will definitely let you walk up steep chutes/ridges in conditions, that you won't be comfortable with just post-holing.

Crampons will probably let you extend the range of what you can climb/ski more. Ski crampons would let you skin stuff that you might otherwise not have enough traction on, but that you could definitely climb with crampons (thought it would be a lot more effort).

Originally Posted by skinnyskier

The usual step would be from boot packing with ski poles to climbing unroped with crampons and an ice axe. The next step would usually be roped climbing with a mix of running belays and belayed pitches. After that things turn into more mountaineering than ski mountaineering. If you have the skills, you already know what you need. If you don't...

Bingo.

Originally Posted by acinpdx

re: crampons in the PNW

ski crampons?
or boot crampons?
which would you buy first for best value?

I find ski crampon useful in only one situation, but for that one situation they are the only thing that will work. That situation is skinning on breakable crust that will support your weight on skis but will break have have you postholing if youre on foot. Im sure others will disagree with me on the uses of ski crampons but I would without a doubt go with boot crampons.

Originally Posted by acinpdx

re: crampons in the PNW

ski crampons?
or boot crampons?
which would you buy first for best value?

They're for mostly completely different things.

It's like asking should you buy a skateboard or a bicycle.

It'll be up AND down. My experience is from rock climbing (going up iow) and glacier use. Can use some gear from that kit but want it as light as possible.

So far on the list:
- Beal Rando 30m
- 1-3 lockingbiners (dmm phantom)
- 1-3 quick draws (camp 23 nano express are sexy)
- Camp Alp 95 Harnes
- 5 or 6mm acc. cord
- Singing rock Shuttle

Again: the setup is mainly for safety in places where you'd think twice about going in without.

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

They're for mostly completely different things.

It's like asking should you buy a skateboard or a bicycle.

^ ^ ^ yeah, no shit

OP, hook up with some experienced responsible mountaineers. Questions re a specific item of gear is cool on the Internet, but if you're asking questions at such a basic level, somebody ought to actually show and teach you.

Originally Posted by superdigg

. . . might involve a short rappell/belay.

Because you asked about both rappelling and belaying, ignore those who suggest a static rope. Static ropes are okay for some rappels, but, even then, they can result in excessive forces on anchors if there's any bouncing at all going on (and even those most experienced and careful people cannot always avoid bounce to some extent). Belaying should always be done with a dynamic line. Anyway, ignore what I just said and heed my initial advice to hook up in-person with some experienced alpinists who are willing to teach you.

Down is fairly easy - slings, biners/links, rope (you can used static for rappel only shots), harness, ATC, something to rap off. Take rock pro, screws, V thread tool as appropriate for the project.

Up, add pro - screws, pickets, stoppers, cams, slings and biners as appropriate.

Now, if you're talking glacier use then you'll want a couple of pickets, ascenders &/or prusiks, some screws, maybe a pulley and Tiblocs, slings and 'biners, and a lot of instruction and practice.

I don't see crampons or ice tools in your list. First things first.

Edit: and what BS said about getting mentors and instruction.

Buy a copy of "Freedom of the Hills" and read it

Originally Posted by shredgnar

..."Freedom of the Hills" ...read it

know it,
live it.

Originally Posted by shredgnar

Buy a copy of "Freedom of the Hills" and read it

All hail the mountain bible

Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

Down is fairly easy

And yet, a fairly significant percentage of mountaineering accidents occur during rappelling. Not calling you out, just agreeing with you and Steve that the OP needs to learn how to do it right.

FOH is a good start. So is John Long's book on anchors.

I think he meant "down is easy" in terms of getting geared up. But see my comments re rapping in static lines, the reality that bouncing does occur and the resultant big forces on anchor with static lines. Why not carry dynamic line (e.g., Ice Floss) anyway? Who knows, you might need to set up a belay.

One test of experience: Experienced alpinists look for ways to avoid raps and, if rapping is the best alternative, they check, double check and triple check their anchors. By contrast, novices are usually eager to rap rather than downclimb.

Yup, Long's book on anchors is very good.

Originally Posted by auvgeek

And yet, a fairly significant percentage of mountaineering accidents occur during rappelling. Not calling you out, just agreeing with you and Steve that the OP needs to learn how to do it right.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

I think he meant "down is easy" in terms of getting geared up.

Big Steve feels me.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

But see my comments re rapping in static lines, the reality that bouncing does occur and the resultant big forces on anchor with static lines.

I ASSumed that he had enough knowledge/experience to know about bouncing. But that's technique and the OP was asking about gear.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Why not carry dynamic line (e.g., Ice Floss) anyway?

There are a number of chutes that I know of that have an easy approach, but may need a short rap to enter or to deal with some obstacle, and the weight/bulk savings of a 6 or 7 mm static line are welcome. That's what I was thinking about, but the knowledge and understanding required are not insignificant as you correctly allude to.

Originally Posted by acinpdx

re: crampons in the PNW

ski crampons?
or boot crampons?
which would you buy first for best value?

If climbing with 'boot crampons' you need an axe. Period.

Just my 2cents for the jong mountaineering thread... carry on.

Originally Posted by _Aaron_

I find ski crampon useful in only one situation, but for that one situation they are the only thing that will work. That situation is skinning on breakable crust that will support your weight on skis but will break have have you postholing if youre on foot. Im sure others will disagree with me on the uses of ski crampons but I would without a doubt go with boot crampons.

_Aaron_, thx useful answer

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

They're for mostly completely different things.

It's like asking should you buy a skateboard or a bicycle.

PNWbrit, thx not very useful answer

Originally Posted by Big Steve

^ ^ ^ yeah, no shit

OP, hook up with some experienced responsible mountaineers. Questions re a specific item of gear is cool on the Internet, but if you're asking questions at such a basic level, somebody ought to actually show and teach you.

Big Steve, i'm assuming this was directed at me (but is advice for the OP too). i would assume that learning and training are 99% of the effort, gear the remaining part. My crampon question was directed at the experience of others here in getting to good ski lines. maybe it WAS assinine...

my own current thoughts have been, if the ascent requires crampons (whichever ones), i'm probably not skiing those conditions on the descent...but i'm willing to go find appropriate training if it opens up new doors.

OP, sorry for the threadjack!

acinpdx, don't take it personally. As Brit notes, the overlap where you could use either harscheisen or boot crampons is very limited. It's not a matter of one or the other. And you'd be surprised how many spring tours set up for harscheisen or pons on the ascent and skiing on the descent.

MS, what device are you using to rap on 6mm perlon? I've rapped on 7mm perlon with an ATC XP, and it seemed right at its limit. I didn't like it. I've also rapped on 6mm perlon using the biner twist method but that really twists up the perlon. I suppose you could do the biner brake bar method for a 6mm, but that requires carrying extra biners that weigh more than the savings carrying the lighter line.

Anyway, I did an analysis last year when I was assessing my gear. 7.7mm dynamic twin Ice Floss is 38g/m. 7mm perlon is 33g/m. So, we're talking around 5 oz. delta for 30m rope, 10 oz. for a 60m (or two 30m). It was an easy choice for me because we already have c. 200m total of Ice Floss ropes in the group (two 60m and one odd length some dumbshit stepped on the rope with crampons), and it made no sense to buy a bunch of 7mm perlon for rap only to save a few ounces. If I'm on a route where I might need to rap, there's almost always an equal likelihood that I might need to belay.

Originally Posted by JayPowHound

If climbing with 'boot crampons' you need an axe. Period.

Or a Whippet?

Originally Posted by acinpdx

_Aaron_, thx useful answer


my own current thoughts have been, if the ascent requires crampons (whichever ones), i'm probably not skiing those conditions on the descent...but i'm willing to go find appropriate training if it opens up new doors.

OP, sorry for the threadjack!

No worries, you will also find crampons useful in softer snow. Im almost always wearing spike when going up. You never know what you will incounter halfway up or what is laying under that fresh coat of snow and its much easier and safer to put them on at the bottom (Flat) vs having to put them on mid slope.

Originally Posted by acinpdx

my own current thoughts have been, if the ascent requires crampons (whichever ones), i'm probably not skiing those conditions on the descent...but i'm willing to go find appropriate training if it opens up new doors.

Plenty of times ski crampons are useful for morning ascents on snow that will soften later. I think they can improve efficiency over teetering on a slick skin track and add a degree of safety. Some people can get by without them at all.

Whether you need them or would be better with boot crampons though depends on what you're doing.

I'd suggest getting ski crampons first especially if you're new to ski touring. But it sounds likely you'll need both soon? Which AT bindings are you using?

Originally Posted by _Aaron_

you will also find crampons useful in softer snow.

^ very true. And under these circumstances the must also have an ice axe rule somewhat goes out of the window.