Thread: I finally see a positive to the 650b craze

They seem to be building the new fleet of 650b bikes with good slack HA's and reasonably short CS's. Really they are very close in geo to current 26" trends, even BB <13.8". I wish they would learn the value of adding reach/TT length so 35-50mm stems can be used for fit and improved weight distribution, but that's another topic and a reason why I may buy a Yeti next time.

So we all know a 650b rim is 25mm taller than a 26" rim, roughly 1". That means if we buy the 650b frame and throw on 26" wheels we will have a 1/2" lower BB and still have the rest of the geo numbers we are all pretty stoked on with today's bikes. With DW driving companies to make suspensions that have more anti-squat (even non-DW link bikes) we can live with lower BB's because the bike will stay higher in it's travel under pedaling forces. Finally, I see a light at the end of the 650 aByss.

2.5 years ago when I put 650b wheels on my Stumpy(26r) it improved the pedal/crank strikes so much that I forgot about the higher BB before the end of the first ride.

I am certainly stoked that the builders are bringing out bikes designed around this wheel size. My wish list has a custom geo Zeus at the top.

Its certainly not for everyone but for lots of folks its the bees knees.

You should have bought a different frame if all you were looking for was a higher BB, but you also wanted crappy tires I guess

That said, I would love to have a 6.5" bike with a 13.2" BB cause pedal strikes are not my issue. My DH bike is sub 14" with 8" of travel and I trail ride the crap out of that bike. Sagged it's just over 11". Yes, I strike pedals occasionally pedaling up rocky climbs, but that doesn't stop me from making the climbs. Descending, I never hit pedals and love the low feel. My trail bike still feels a tad high and it's 13.5" right now with 6" of travel.

You DO know that tires will be available in all flavors from all manufacturers next year, don't you?
What do you perceive the 'downsides' to this format existing being, exactly?

I'm kinda salivating over the new Rocky Mtns. the Cube is a pretty cool concept.

They are designed around 60mm stems, which is fine by me. Sub 50mm feels a little weird to me on a trail bike.

Originally Posted by flowtron's ghost

I'm kinda of salivating over the new Rocky Mtns. the Cube is a pretty cool concept.

They are designed around 60mm stems, which is fine by me. Sub 50mm feels a little weird to me on a trail bike.

I swapped a 50mm stem on the Altitude and it felt fine and still feels fine. I'll likely stick with 70mm on it though. Haven't played around with the Ride9 cube yet but I'm sure I will. Will be interesting to stick some 26" wheels on it just for kicks and see how it does

Originally Posted by rideit

You DO know that tires will be available in all flavors from all manufacturers next year, don't you?
What do you perceive the 'downsides' to this format existing being, exactly?

I'll believe it when I see it. Tire manufacturers have always been overly cautious about releasing new tires in various sizes, and that's just for 26" which has been the accepted standard for ages. I don't expect this trend to magically reverse just because 650b is the shiny new thing on the block. It's all vaporware for now.

Originally Posted by flowtron's ghost

I'm kinda of salivating over the new Rocky Mtns. the Cube is a pretty cool concept.

They are designed around 60mm stems, which is fine by me. Sub 50mm feels a little weird to me on a trail bike.

That's because most bikes have too short of TT dimensions. They have continually gotten shorter over the years to the point that medium frames often fit like smalls now. If they lengthen TT's, I think you would like the shorter stem. I hate to a agree with anyone from France, but I agree with Fabian about this concept, although I'd like a solution that keeps the grips lower. Look at the '13 Mondraker's

As for why I'm not on the bandwagon (yes, many more tires will be available in '13, but to say all will be out, is an exaggeration)...

1) I know for a fact that a lot of R&D effort that was pointed toward 150-170mm travel 26" bikes all STOPPED DEAD while manufacturers either jumped to working on 650b (I bet it takes a couple years to perfect geo just like 29ers), or they just stopped all work in that category and focused it into other directions until this plays out (ie. long travel 29ers).
2) If/when it takes off, resale for 26" bikes in this category will go the same way as 26" XC bikes have. Everyone on here who owns a recent bike in this category should care about this.
3) The more options/standards out there, the harder it is for the LBS to stock/support everything, the more design resources will be spread too thin (leads to even more product issues), the lower the volumes of any single product sold will be, the higher the prices will be. If everyone is focused on the next direction there is no one fixing the crap made last year. Some products just need a minor tweak and they would kill it, but instead the company builds something totally new with new issues.
4) I believe that while the 1" larger wheel size may perform marginally better(I estimate 3.8% max ), I do not believe that my 26" wheels are holding me back from doing anything I want to do on my current 150-170mm bikes. If I want to retain more momentum while keeping the bike pointed straight, I'll buy a 29er which has a very noticeable effect in that regard.

I'm sure in 10 years I will end up with a 29er XC bike, a 650b trail bike, and a 26" DH bike...I just don't love having to maintain all the different wheels and tires. By the same logic as the 650b craze, people dirt jumping on 26" wheeled bikes are dumb, because they could pull off bigger/cooler tricks on 24" wheeled bikes.

Ok, ok...how about 'many flavors from all major manufacturers, then...'

So longer top tube with shorter stem gets you over the handlebars better on a climb or what? I have a 19" frame with about a 24 or 24.5" top tube and sometimes it's hard to navigate up steep and tight switchbacks. This is with 26" wheels. This is with a 60X10 stem and 28" bars. Don't see how a longer top tube would help me. Not disagreeing with you, I'm saying I don't see, so maybe an explanation would help me.

Also, you point about there being too many standards and it driving up costs was much better made than mine.

Of the few bikes I have rode, I like the stability of a 29er, especially if it's light and compact enough to not notice the high center of gravity much. I can't really/too much of a pussy for airs and tricks and whatnot.

you could put 27.5 wheels on a 29'er and drop the bb to like 12.5

sicky-boom-bastic.

Short top tubes are more fun in the air, and when you are really rallying the bike. As are short stems. Just get what works for you. Want short cockpit?
Go Canadian.
Want long?
Go Yeti.

As to the 'many standards', I think the Great Industry Hope is that 650 will BE the overwhelmingly majority size, bringing the price significantly down in that category, as it will 'fit' more people (and Work better with more bike 'types') in the long run. I know there is a feeling that many folks have more or less shoehorned themselves onto 29'ers, and likely a good number of folks will gravitate back to a slightly smaller wheel for a variety of reasons. And lots of 26'ers really are looking to find a way to close the gap (XC wise) with 29-ers, they are faster in some applications.
In other words, hoard your Minion 26's NOW, the apocalypse is coming!

Originally Posted by phatfreeheeler

1) I know for a fact that a lot of R&D effort that was pointed toward 150-170mm travel 26" bikes all STOPPED DEAD while manufacturers either jumped to working on 650b (I bet it takes a couple years to perfect geo just like 29ers), or they just stopped all work in that category and focused it into other directions until this plays out (ie. long travel 29ers).

You make it sounds like this is some kinda event that has stopped all human progress. OMG a couple bike engineers stopped working on a category. I highly doubt they were with bike companies looking to innovate as innovaters don't stop and wait to see what the market does, they make the market.

2) If/when it takes off, resale for 26" bikes in this category will go the same way as 26" XC bikes have. Everyone on here who owns a recent bike in this category should care about this.

Caring about resale value is for chumps. This isn't the used car market. It's a bike that should be beat on hard in the forest and put away wet. It's a rented mule. I have no sympathy for anyone crying the blues on the resale value of their $10,000 bike.

3) The more options/standards out there, the harder it is for the LBS to stock/support everything, the more design resources will be spread too thin (leads to even more product issues), the lower the volumes of any single product sold will be, the higher the prices will be. If everyone is focused on the next direction there is no one fixing the crap made last year. Some products just need a minor tweak and they would kill it, but instead the company builds something totally new with new issues.

Smart shops will figure this out pretty easy. Carry what works. Don't try and be everything to everyone, good bike shops are not the supermarket. You don't need 31 flavours of 29er tires, and 26 tires, and 650b tires in stock. Most of the products on the market suck anyway, so hopefully crappy stuff dies off. Sometimes new can lead to less, RM used to make a 26 Altitude and a 29 Altitude, going forward is just a 650b, they also co-opted much of the design from the Element frame series, to me it seems they are actually streamlining things. I'd say it's crappy companies that keep starting things from fresh instead of tweaking good proven designs.

4) I believe that while the 1" larger wheel size may perform marginally better(I estimate 3.8% max ), I do not believe that my 26" wheels are holding me back from doing anything I want to do on my current 150-170mm bikes. If I want to retain more momentum while keeping the bike pointed straight, I'll buy a 29er which has a very noticeable effect in that regard.

This I can't really comment on as I've never ridden a 650b. I've ridden a few good geo 29'ers and liked some aspects, but didn't like other aspect. If 650b splits the difference on these I think I'll be pretty stoked, but will need to try em.

Originally Posted by phatfreeheeler

2) If/when it takes off, resale for 26" bikes in this category will go the same way as 26" XC bikes have. Everyone on here who owns a recent bike in this category should care about this..

Eh, I think the resale for all the recent bikes I own sucks anyway...I usually ride them til they're clapped and sell them cheap to someone who understands what they are getting.

I've seen some early signs that the 650b FS bikes in 2013 will lower the resale value of FS 29ers, especially the shitty 'long CS, steep HA' flavor of FS 29ers. I remain skeptical that the six fiddy tire selection in 2013 will be great, but it looks like it will not suck majorly at least.

If a carbonz DW link 650 frame with good geo comes out, I will be tempted....

Originally Posted by marshalolson

you could put 27.5 wheels on a 29'er and drop the bb to like 12.5

sicky-boom-bastic.

and a 68.5 deg HA and 17.8" CS