Thread: AT boot liners in PMBs and other mountaineering boot questions

I’m doing a glacier skills clinic on Shasta in a couple of weeks and I have zero experience with mountaineering boots. We’ll be using 12-point crampons and doing front pointing stuff on the seracs. I could use any advice related to my rental options that anyone has to offer.

My options are:
1. Use the Koflach 2-piece PMBs that the guide/outfitter has available – but there are fit issues here
2. Rent from Base Camp shop in town, and they have Mad Rock, Lowa, and Vasque boots available for rental – but I have to get into town a day early and take another day off of work

Issue with option #1 is that I have low volume feet and the Koflachs that I tested at REI could not really keep my foot from sliding around or heel lifting. I am definitely going to be bringing my Superfeets and possibly even heel lifts to take up a little more volume, but I wonder if it makes sense to use my AT ski boot liners inside a PMB? The Black Diamond BOA liners are much more supportive than the Koflach liners and they fit me really well.

Issue with option #2 is that I haven’t been able to try on any of these boots, and I’d be losing another day of work to get up there early enough to get set up. I can’t remember if they have La Sportiva Trangos at Base Camp, but those seemed to fit and support me reasonably well. They might have other rental options too – those were the only ones I remembered when talking over the phone.

If anyone has any experience/opinions about rentals at Base Camp, using AT ski boot liners in PMB, or good boots for people with low volume feet, I’d love to hear. Thanks.

Why not just use your AT boots? Sure they are heavier and don't walk quite as well. You know those boots fit and it is what you will be using outside of the class right.

Originally Posted by cat in january

Why not just use your AT boots? Sure they are heavier and don't walk quite as well. You know those boots fit and it is what you will be using outside of the class right.

I would be using these outside of the class in snow and neve conditions, but I have no idea if I'd be doing late fall glacier travel in the future. The whole point of this class is to see if I even enjoy doing this kind of stuff, and I have an interest in tackling more intimidating glaciated mountains like Hood and Rainier. The guide told me not to use my AT boot also.

Fair enough.

I bought my Koflach degree's in the late 90's and hiked around in them wishing I had the change for an AT setup.

Since I got it 4 years ago my Koflach's have not been out. If I am climbing up snow, I want to be able to slide down. That's my perspective and why I recommended the AT boots. Besides the weight and more limited ankle flex my boots are also a steeper ramp angle even in walk mode, making the Koflach's easier. Still I would take the class in my AT boots because that is the setup I would use after class.

Why not take your liners and insoles to REI and see if they work with the Koflach boots?

If that doesn't work so well, go with option #2. Leather mountaineering boots generally fit and climb better than plastic boots (downside is they're generally not as warm and don't dry as quickly). Plus, you'll be more comfortable if your feet aren't sweating like crazy.

Although...it's a little odd that the shop carries "Mad Rock, Lowa, and Vasque" boots for rental: Mad Rock discontinued their only mountaineering boot a few years ago and Vasque has never made a mountaineering boot (that I know of). Lowa makes some decent boots...but if they told you they carried "Vasque mountaineering boots," I'd be sure to call again and confirm they have something that will work with crampons (if step-in, it needs a catch for the front bale; if newmatic, it still needs to be rigid enough to frontpoint in).

Re AT or mountaineering boots: both have their place. There will be some moderate routes you'll want to ski (I HATED hiking down Rainier) and other, more technical routes you'll want to descend or rappel. Ski mountaineering is a bit different, so I don't think it's unreasonable to get comfortable in the mountains before trying that stuff on skis.

Have fun with the class. Need to brush up on glacier skills myself.

PS: I'm no expert, so others should chime in as well.

Originally Posted by auvgeek

Why not take your liners and insoles to REI and see if they work with the Koflach boots?

If that doesn't work so well, go with option #2. Leather mountaineering boots generally fit and climb better than plastic boots (downside is they're generally not as warm and don't dry as quickly). Plus, you'll be more comfortable if your feet aren't sweating like crazy.

Although...it's a little odd that the shop carries "Mad Rock, Lowa, and Vasque" boots for rental: Mad Rock discontinued their only mountaineering boot a few years ago and Vasque has never made a mountaineering boot (that I know of). Lowa makes some decent boots...but if they told you they carried "Vasque mountaineering boots," I'd be sure to call again and confirm they have something that will work with crampons (if step-in, it needs a catch for the front bale; if newmatic, it still needs to be rigid enough to frontpoint in).

Re AT or mountaineering boots: both have their place. There will be some moderate routes you'll want to ski (I HATED hiking down Rainier) and other, more technical routes you'll want to descend or rappel. Ski mountaineering is a bit different, so I don't think it's unreasonable to get comfortable in the mountains before trying that stuff on skis.

Have fun with the class. Need to brush up on glacier skills myself.

PS: I'm no expert, so others should chime in as well.

Thanks for the good points.

Oh yeah, one clarification, is that I'm also much more closer to being able to snowboard mountaineer terrain like that than actually ski it - I am a really shitty skier. That said, this class is strictly related to glacier travel and that's why I'm not likely going to be using my AT boots for similar terrain in the near future unless I am changing my binding setup (to work with my AT boots). I know guys who snowboard in La Sportiva Spantiks ... but that is a ways off for me, dropping at least six bills on a boot I might not use very much.

I'll take my liners and insoles to REI and try them in the Koflach, just wanted to see if anyone had a reason why this would be a bad idea ... but I can't see any reason why not after reading a bit more.

I would think a general glacier skills class won't involve much frontpointing. If indeed it's a general skills class, I suggest you use general mountaineering boots. Even if you might spend some time frontpointing in this clinic and if there's any chance you'll get into general mountaineering in the future, do not buy plastic boots and look at general mountaineering boots. PMBs completely suck at most mountaineering travel. Many, maybe most, technical water ice/white ice climbers these days are on non-plastics.

La Sportivas tend to run smaller volume -- but you won't know what fits until you actually try them.

Gratuitous quip: I'm just back home from an 8-day mountaineering high route, including substantial glacier travel and thousands of steps relying on my mountaineering boots. I'd still be out there if I had goddam plastic boots.

Guide operations tend to suggest hard plastic boots to protect themselves from liability: you're much less likely to freeze your toes off. Generally, a full-shank gore-tex leather boot is more than sufficient for alpine scrambling and glacier travel. (More comfy, too.)

Originally Posted by skimaxpower

Guide operations tend to suggest hard plastic boots to protect themselves from liability: you're much less likely to freeze your toes off. Generally, a full-shank gore-tex leather boot is more than sufficient for alpine scrambling and glacier travel. (More comfy, too.)

If the guide is renting the boots might it also be that plastic boots are more durable and won't look quite so beat-to-hell?
Your idea of bring your AT liners and superfeet, heavier socks as well (not the no-no in climbing boots they are in ski boots) and renting the Koflachs makes the most sense to me. Doesn't seem worth it to take an extra day off work just to rent a pair of boots you don't know will be any better. You should be able to get the Koflachs to work for you well enough to do the course--the clinic doesn't sound that heavy duty, you'll probably be one of the strongest climbers there, the guides will be used to people wearing boots that don't fit that well, etc, etc. In other words don't worry too much. (I wonder what kind of boots the guide company was going to give me to tromp around on the Mendenhall glacier--which was a shore trip I was supposed to do [cancelled due to fog] on the Alaska cruise my wife made me do. Probably good I didn't get to find out. It was bad enough paddling around in 4-5 foot waves with a bunch of people who had never been in a kayak before. )

So I looked up my email into the guide and I actually never asked them about using my AT boots - I wasn't sure that I wanted to dry tool for so much in those goddamn things because snowline is going to be pretty high already this time of year. I did ask them about my AT boots because despite the lack of a rear welt, I can scramble like a champ in those and they can work with 12 point strap crampons, and they said "We would discourage you from using a stiff snowboard boot on this course."

Front pointing is not a major part of the course:

Day 2 - Ice axe, crampons, snow & ice climbing skills with emphasis on self belay and pied a plat French crampon technique. Harness and rope for braced and anchored belays, hazard recognition, assessment and management.

Day 3 - Roped glacier travel skills, crevasse rescue skills and steep serac ice climbing with front point technique and piolet traction. Safety planning and route planning for summit ascent.

Day 4 - Very early pre-dawn start with headlamps for a summit ascent and back to camp. Break camp and hike out back to the trailhead. Traditional course closing.

Originally Posted by old goat

Doesn't seem worth it to take an extra day off work just to rent a pair of boots you don't know will be any better. You should be able to get the Koflachs to work for you well enough to do the course

See, this, right here is the sensible kind of advice that I need. Mostly because I really don't want to take a day off of work. I'll throw my Black Diamond liners in my car and get to REI after work soon to test this out.

It sounds like, if I am gonna "do it right" for the future, if I indeed decide that I need another high risk, expensive gear, time away from the city and normal people, activity, that I would want to get some Spantiks that fit my foot and would actually work on a snowboard. But for now, path of least resistance that won't destroy my feet or piss me off beyond reason is key.


Oh yeah, OG, the "guide" is ASI if that makes any diff. I think Bela might be teaching the course, not sure yet.

Sounds like a basic glacier course. Take light mountaineering boots if you can, e.g., LaSportiva Trango, Scarpa Charmoz, and your feet will be happy. If you get into general mountaineering at any level -- i.e., scrambles, stratovolcanoes, high routes, Cascade/Sierra Grade I-III climbs -- light mountaineering boots will be the right footwear 95%+ of the time. Spantiks are way too big, stiff and clunky for general mountaineering. 90%+ of the peaks and high routes in the Cascades get done on Trangos, Charmoz, Triolet (a bit more boot) or equivalent boots. Most of the real go-getter PNW climbers don't own anything bigger than Triolets.

Gearing up for basic mountaineering is not that expensive if you already have ski touring clothing. Get a good fitting light mountaineering boot, an ice axe, Al crampons and a hard hat. Start with scrambles, snow climbs and off-trail hiking. If you like that, step up and get glacier gear (alpine harness, prusiks, a few runners, pear biner and a few biners). Someone else will supply the rope, pickets, ice screws, etc.

Great that you are taking the class. Learning ice axe skills, Frenching and glacier skills will greatly open up your options for mountain travel. Have fun.

^ the only reason I mentioned Spantiks is that the upper cuffs are actually large enough to be used in snowboard strap bindings without tongue modifications. I don't know if they were Triolets, but the Scarpas I tried on didn't fit as well as the Trangos. The Trango Extreme Evo looks intriguing to me as a good piece of gear to own, but it would be nice to be able to use something that I can actually jump into my snowboard bindings with, if they are not detrimental in other aspects. All hypothetical though ... I'll try all of those out for the future.

Thanks for the info and sharing your experience Steve

Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio

. . . the Scarpas I tried on didn't fit as well as the Trangos. The Trango Extreme Evo looks intriguing to me as a good piece of gear to own, but it would be nice to be able to use something that I can actually jump into my snowboard bindings with, if they are not detrimental in other aspects.

No surprise there. Scarpa (mid-volume, D+ toe box width) and Trango Evos (low volume, narrower) have very different fits. Most people can fit into either Charmoz/Triolet or into Trango Evo. Kayland makes a nice light mountaineering boot, although I don't know anything about the fit. I doubt you'll find a good lightweight compact mountaineering boot that will fit in snowboard bindings. One advantage of modern LW mountaineering boots is that they have a compact profile which gives you much more feel, better for smaller holds and allows adequate edging (shorter lever) in a light boot.

Schralph--if you do rent I hope the boots smell better than the Canyoneers I rented from Zion Adventures. We thought the shit bag had leaked.

Originally Posted by auvgeek

it's a little odd that the shop carries "Mad Rock, Lowa, and Vasque" boots for rental

So I called again to confirm, and the shop has those brands for rental, and only those brands.

Mad Rock Alpinist and Mad Rock Mountain: http://store.madrockclimbing.com/mountaineering.aspx (those things seem absurdly inexpensive)
Lowa 2-piece plastic, and, these weird Vasque M Possibles: http://gearx.com/vasque-m-possible-b...ing-boots.html

Another shop in town (the 5th Season) has Lowa Mtn Expert boots for rental, which are available at REI to try on in the store (I didn't have time to try these out when I was there) ... so, if the AT boot liner trick doesn't work, then I'll probably give those Lowas a try ...

Thanks for all the input so far!

That sounds like a good plan. But if those don't work .... What size foot are you? And what weekend is the class?

I'm like a 9-9.5, 42.5-43 for street or other shoes, but probably a 10 for mountain boots. Class is August 18-21.

Well...my foot is a little bigger (like 43-44 street shoe), but try on a 44.5* Sportiva Nepal Evo next time you're in REI. If it fits better than the others, I'll ship mine to you USPS at cost. Plan to be climbing in Squamish that weekend so I don't need 'em.

*Unlike ski boots where I prefer a thin sock, I actually use a liner sock and a thicker mountaineering sock -- Big Steve might disagree with that approach, but that's how I sized 'em at the time.

Originally Posted by auvgeek

*Unlike ski boots where I prefer a thin sock, I actually use a liner sock and a thicker mountaineering sock -- Big Steve might disagree with that approach, but that's how I sized 'em at the time.

Actually, that's close to my current combo of a thin liner and a medium wool hiking sock for my current mountaineering boots (Charmoz). Lots of guys go with one pair of sox.

^ that's exactly what I use

I bring multiple liners on multi-day trips, since the liners can soak up much of the death-like smell and keep the socks nicer for longer. Case in point, my photo from Shasta 2 months ago:




Oh yeah, auv, thanks for the offer! I'm optimistic I'll make it work - I think your boots would just be too big. Thanks again.

Black Diamond Boa liners inside Koflach boots FTW!

I tried on the Lowa Mountain Expert boots and they have monster arch supports that really hurt my feet. The Scarpa Charmoz boots fit okay, not comfortable and not painful - but not dramatically better than the Koflachs for me to want to take an entire day off from work ... and who knows how those Vasque or Mad Rock boots will fit me. No one rents La Sportiva, at least that I can find in short order!

I tried my liners in size 9.5 and size 10 Koflach PMB shells. They felt great in the size 9.5 - so much better than the crappy rental liners - but I was able to jam my big toe into the front of the boot if kicking into the ground. The big toe didn't really bottom out when kicking in the size 10 boot, though it was a little sloppier overall because the liner had a little left-right clearance inside the shell.

Sooo, I think the 10 will work. I'm less likely to bruise my toe and maybe I just throw a little extra duct tape or something around the liner ...

So, this actually worked pretty well. They looked like this:





The guide was skeptical, but there were really only two crappy aspects. One, the weight of those stupid boots on my back on the long dusty approach (grrrrr), and two, the liners did not breathe as well as the stock liners, which had some little vent holes but those would have likely been a sweaty cesspool as well. I was actually really glad to have foot-molded liners while walking around below the firn line - quite comfy. We didn't do any technical front pointing after all (mostly frenching up the frozen crust of corn on the summit approach), and the only fun part of the trip where things got semi-technical was swinging the axe, stemming, and high-stepping over and around the penitentes that were forming up high. Shortly after this photo, the guide unroped us and I took off like a bee. It was super fun through this section, which got even deeper further up.



And Old Goat, you were right. I was not the strongest person carrying a big heavy pack on the way in or out of the mountain, but I was by far the strongest, most experienced, most comfortable climber in the class. Kind of a disappointment because two of the guys had never even belayed a rope before (didn't meet the prereqs) and it prevented us from getting too deep into the more technical ropework aspects of the class. Those two guys didn't even know how to put their harnesses on and had to be helped each time. Not fun at 4AM when it's blowing with windchill below 20 and you're being asked to rope up to complete mountain beginners for a looooong steep frozen snowfield ascent ...

But the summit was nice, nicer even with my victory prize I carried up there.

Looks fun. Which route did you do on Shasta? Those penitentes get pretty hairy up there late season.

So, do you now have the glacier travel bug?

Hotlum-Wintum - same exact route I did 2 months ago, though this time we stayed lookers left above the Wintum and avoided the firing line of rockfall down the steeper face directly above Ship Rock.

I'm gonna admit, hanging out inside of seracs and seeing sights like below was super fun and I want to go back ... but I am never walking off a big mountain on foot again. Skis are the only way to go!!!








Another reason walking sucks ... we had to glissade down a massive face of perfect corn. One of the group members was timid with glissading speed, and we had a lot of people (5) so we were moving slowly. About 2/3 of the way down, the guide starts screaming "ROOOOOOCK ROOOOOCK ROOOOOCK" and I stand up and turn around to see a microwave oven sized boulder coming down my exact glissade track, heading right at me, bouncing and picking up speed. I had some time to react, but it was one of those 'do I run left, or right?' moments as I was trying to figure out its path. I ran left, and the big thing whizzed by about 15 feet to my right, leaving 1 foot deep divots in the snow every time it bounced. Screw walking, I would have been offa that slope in 1/6 the time skiing!