2012 ISSW????

[stalefish3169]

Congrats on getting the paper done Matt.

Thanks, Bunion. Now all I have to do is graduate and then the big bucks will start coming in.

[icelanticskier]

darn toot'n nopostholio. classroom time is good for student/teacher intro's, packing up gear. and snack time and that's about it. getting out in all conditions including scary stupid is paramount. scary stupid learns you proper terrain management right quick or you'll probably die. you don't learn nearly as much on low days as you do high days. pits are cute, but once dug your decision to ski that slope is 95% made up in favor of slaying the thing.

rog

[CookieMonster]

Can someone explain to me why it's good for skiers to have one size fits all avy education standards? I mean, I get why the providers want little collect $$$$ standards, but why do I? Kachina Peaks there is a fair bit simpler than some other ranges in the world, why would a class taught there be relevant to skiing in Alaska? I've taken NSP Avy work, it's good for producing ski area monkeys, much better than some other course, which is what they want, right?

One size fits all? I don't think AIARE curriculum takes that approach.

* There are multiple levels and the level 1 course covers important basics.
* I can't imagine anything that ties the basic skillset learned at an AIARE course to any particular location.
* Local experience and observations are essential for effective backcountry avalanche forecasting, but those aren't something that can be taught in a class anyway.
* However, you can teach the -importance- of local experience and observations at a course.
* You can teach people how to make and prioritise observations.

Anyway, even if Kachina Peaks lacks the complexity of the Chugach, the laws of physics are the same. It takes a surprisingly small amount of snow to bury, injure, or kill a skier.

roofs and mountains have much in common when it comes to slides. angle, new slab, sliding surface, and a trigger. same as anywhere else in the world. teach skiers the basics and keep much of the silly intricate "science" bullshit away from them and they'll do much less second guessing and actually pick their head up and look around.
rog

* Do you really think that "intricate 'science'" is why backcountry avalanche forecasting is complex?
* Do you really think second guessing is the fundamental problem?

Here are the answers.

* The chaotic interaction of terrain and weather is why backcountry avalanche forecasting is complex.
* Faulty perception of instability is the root cause of all avalanche involvement.

What you call "intricate 'science'" is really just a reflection of the complexity of the natural world.

I'd love to see your outline for an avalanche skills training course. Do you happen to have one?

[icelanticskier]

I'd love to see your outline for an avalanche skills training course. Do you happen to have one?

nice clear input above cookster.

i have no outline for an avy skillz training course, i'm just a skier coming at this from a skiers point of view, my point of view. my belief is that avy courses in general can bring more complexity into a recreational skiers world than is necessary. i see lots of skiers out there fresh out of an avy 1, or even avy 2, without any clue of where to properly put in a skinner or booter to suit the conditions or the terrain they are in.

they love to dig pits tho and get out all of their nice lil snow tools and stuff. i really feel that folks should take a backcountry/mountain 101/ettiquette course before any type of avy course. avy forecasting can be complex due to weather/terrain, but can be pretty darn basic for skiers that are just out there to ski. a go or no go thang. has it snowed? is this slope over 30 degrees? wind? terrain traps? not hard, not complex. at all. unless ya wanna make it so. most folks i run into coming fresh out of a course seem to wanna make things more complex than they need to be and still have their head in the book and not where they actually are which is where their heads need to be.

rog

[homemadesalsa]

Jeebus, Rog, why does every single thread have to become a discussion of how YOU make decisions in the backcountry. Everybody learns differently, you know that. For some, the experiential method, or following around a mentor is better; others like to have a little book larnin' behind them. It is part of your job as the old dude to be a little bit tolerant of people trying to figure it out, and using a wide variety of tools.

The AAA and AIARE are simply (oversimplified) working to make sure that courses are good, appropriate, and taught by people who know what they are doing. Courses are points along a long long curve, theory must be translated to action, but theory is improving over time, I assure you.

[Hugh Conway]

* Local experience and observations are essential for effective backcountry avalanche forecasting, but those aren't something that can be taught in a class anyway.

If you've an experienced local instructor, yes, some can be. If you've credentialed broheim.... not so much.

* I can't imagine anything that ties the basic skillset learned at an AIARE course to any particular location.

sounds like a bug, not a feature. I take classes for real world feedback from humanoids. The real world feedback afforded by studying mountains in the Cascades, inland ranges, and podunk peaks without much above treeline like the east coast or kachinas is substantially different. which means the environment for:

* You can teach people how to make and prioritise observations.

is substantially different. Having taken classes in the coast ranges which "dug pits" the feedback afforded from them was pretty worthless because there wasn't much happening in the snowpack. Inland, different story. Similarly for planning routes in the North East - straight forward slide paths, substantially different from other ranges with overlapping slide paths and hazards. Different terrain, different problems, different needs of the people skiing there. Unless one devotes much time and money I wouldn't expect mastery.

Dunno, to me the data/assumptions used to generate the "greater good/greater number" are more interesting than any standardization.

[kingdom-tele]

nice clear input above cookster.

i have no outline for an avy skillz training course, i'm just a skier coming at this from a skiers point of view, my point of view. my belief is that avy courses in general can bring more complexity into a recreational skiers world than is necessary. i see lots of skiers out there fresh out of an avy 1, or even avy 2, without any clue of where to properly put in a skinner or booter to suit the conditions or the terrain they are in.

they love to dig pits tho and get out all of their nice lil snow tools and stuff. i really feel that folks should take a backcountry/mountain 101/ettiquette course before any type of avy course. avy forecasting can be complex due to weather/terrain, but can be pretty darn basic for skiers that are just out there to ski. a go or no go thang. has it snowed? is this slope over 30 degrees? wind? terrain traps? not hard, not complex. at all. unless ya wanna make it so. most folks i run into coming fresh out of a course seem to wanna make things more complex than they need to be and still have their head in the book and not where they actually are which is where their heads need to be.

rog

"All animals, while capable of some degree of specialized learning, are instinct driven, guided by simple cues from the environment that trigger complex behavior patterns. The complexity of the universe means nothing to them. They are exquisitely adapted to just those parts of the environment on which their lives depend." - E. O. Wilson

Rog, take a few minutes to calm down the cheerleaders in your head, behind all the self accolades is a conversation that is quite complex built on all your days and experiences with other people I might add, even though you like the idea of being an animal you seemed to have forgotten how you learned your instincts. Anyone new at anything is going to make it more complex, its the framework on how it gets redefined that is critical. Insert the understanding of any system your interested in. working on an understanding of any complex system shapes empiricism

[icelanticskier]

thank you ms salsa and kt

rog

[Tap]

hey ISSW people,

the Central Oregon Avalanche Association is looking to send one of our own to ISSW (we won the essay contest to get a free pass to ISSW).....am curious if any mags can offer up a place to stay, even better if it is a bunch of attendees who have a house they want someone to go in on with them.

Please hit me up with a PM ASAP, thx.

Tap

[homemadesalsa]

Hey Tap-

You should check out the hostel: www.bentpropinn.com (I think that's it). They have beds in the bunkroom for $30 for the first night, $25 each night afterwards. If you call or make a reservation make sure you get the downtown location (there are two).

[Tap]

Thx HMS!

[endure]

heading up on Saturday and presenting Monday afternoon I believe.. should be fun!

[Hacksaw]

heading up on Saturday and presenting Monday afternoon I believe.. should be fun!

What's your paper?

[endure]

What's your paper?

deep slab, I think it is 1:20..? right after Yurg, eek! you?

[cmor]

I will be there Thurs-Fri only unfortunately. I talk on Thurs. Apologies in advance.

[BFD]

should be a welcome change for everyone coming from the hot and dry.
INCLUDING...ANCHORAGE...EAGLE RIVER...INDIAN...EKLUTNA
500 AM AKDT SAT SEP 15 2012

...HIGH WIND WARNING IN EFFECT FROM 8 PM THIS EVENING TO 8 PM
AKDT SUNDAY...
.TODAY...RAIN. HIGHS IN THE UPPER 40S TO MID 50S. VARIABLE WINDS 10
TO 25 MPH. ALONG TURNAGAIN ARM AND HIGHER ELEVATIONS...SOUTHEAST
WINDS 20 TO 40 MPH WITH LOCAL GUSTS TO 60 MPH.
.TONIGHT...RAIN. LOWS IN THE MID 40S TO LOWER 50S. ALONG TURNAGAIN
ARM AND HIGHER ELEVATIONS...SOUTHEAST WINDS 70 TO 85 MPH WITH GUSTS
TO 110 MPH. THE REST OF ANCHORAGE...SOUTHEAST WINDS 25 TO 40 MPH WITH
GUSTS 50 TO 65 MPH DEVELOPING BY LATE EVENING.
.SUNDAY...RAIN LIKELY. HIGHS IN THE LOWER TO MID 50S. ALONG TURNAGAIN
ARM AND HIGHER ELEVATIONS...SOUTHEAST WIND 70 TO 85 MPH. GUSTS TO 110
MPH IN THE MORNING. THE REST OF ANCHORAGE...SOUTH WINDS 25 TO 40 MPH
WITH GUSTS TO 65 MPH.
.SUNDAY NIGHT...SHOWERS LIKELY. LOWS IN THE UPPER 30S TO MID 40S.
SOUTH WIND 25 TO 45 MPH WITH LOCAL GUSTS TO 60 MPH IN THE EVENING.
ALONG TURNAGAIN ARM AND HIGHER ELEVATIONS...SOUTHEAST WINDS 40 TO 60
MPH. GUSTS TO 75 MPH IN THE EVENING.
.MONDAY...MOSTLY CLOUDY. A SLIGHT CHANCE OF SHOWERS IN THE AFTERNOON.
HIGHS IN THE 50S. SOUTH WIND 10 TO 25 MPH.
.MONDAY NIGHT...CLOUDY WITH A CHANCE OF RAIN. LOWS 35 TO 45.
.TUESDAY...CLOUDY WITH A CHANCE OF RAIN. HIGHS 55 TO 60.
.TUESDAY NIGHT THROUGH THURSDAY...RAIN LIKELY. LOWS IN THE 40S.
HIGHS IN THE 50S.
.THURSDAY NIGHT...MOSTLY CLOUDY WITH A CHANCE OF RAIN. LOWS IN
THE 40S.
.FRIDAY...MOSTLY CLOUDY. HIGHS 55 TO 60.

[Bunion 2020]

Sounds like a typical ISSW

[Hacksaw]

I just saw Howie in the hotel lobby. He says the winds won't kick in until 2230 hrs AK time...

[homemadesalsa]

I just saw Howie in the hotel lobby. He says the winds won't kick in until 2230 hrs AK time...

and my plane gets into ANC at 2130. Ha. Come find me for a beer, all!

[Hacksaw]

Theo Meiners was the session chair for the Avalanche Forecasting session on Tuesday. I first met Theo at ISSW Banff (96?). He was always friendly and willing to talk with me. Last night be for the ISSW banquet we taked and I gave him a field book to try this winter. He was VERY happy and excited that Mike Wiegele had asked him if he'd like to attend Wiegele guide training this November.

Sadly, after the banquet Theo fell from the escalator last night and died.

I feel very sad and will miss Theo very much.

[summit]

RIP Theo
I met him CSAW in 2009.
Condolences to all who knew him.