Thread: Ti over Steel...is it worth it?

I've been on a el mariachi (steel) for the past year and I love it. It has gotten me into some amazing local backcountry that would have taken me a few days to hike into. Some of my longer weekend rides are starting to be in to 80 mile, 11,000 ft of climb range, which has made me start thinking about upgrading to a Ti El Mar frame. I don't want to go carbon, and I really don't want a Alum HT, so Ti in my eyes in my only option to lighten my frame load.

Do any of you have opinions regarding the steel vs ti issue? Would it be worth it to upgrade frames?

Just do your research.

I've ridden a few ti frames that were WAY more flexy than their steel or aluminum counterparts (in the dimensions that you DON'T want them to be in)

There's some really good stuff out there though. If I were looking for a hardtail mtb, I'd be looking at ti frames too.

drop $2k into carbon wheels instead, if you actually want to see a real performance gain.

saving .5lbs for $2k seems silly IMO.

^ It's likely closer to a 2 lb drop in frame weight, but agree. I own a steel El Mariachi and a Ti Lynskey; my El Mar frame is about 5.5 lbs for a Medium, think the newer are a bit heavier vs my Lynskey which is ~3.5 lbs. I personally can't justify carbon wheels at the price they're going for, primarily b/c of (percieved?) longevity. A rim is a semi-disposable item where I ride often, can't imagine having to shell out even replacement pricing for a new rim.

I run Crests which aren't very stiff (@ 160lbs), but are very light and definitely fairly well price, especially against carbon.

Long way around to agree with Marshal's point, but would dip my toe into the water with a ~$500 Stan's Crest wheelset for similar weight savings before going nuts on Carbon wheels or Ti frames. I've been riding my Ti frame for ~2 years and still love it. Light and fairly stiff, but with some give like steel. I recently rode a Niner EMD for a while and wow it's stiff, much harsher than steel or Ti.

Originally Posted by marshalolson

drop $2k into carbon wheels instead, if you actually want to see a real performance gain.

saving .5lbs for $2k seems silly IMO.

But those stiff carbon wheels are going to punch your taint even harder.

Maybe I'm projecting but the whole reason I'd be looking at ti is for the compliance and nut vibration damping over aluminum......has nothing to do with weight (unless you're talking about vs steel). But the vibration damping is why I ride a steel dirtjumper.

All I am saying is frame weight is about the least important thing to save weight on... But sure 2lbs is nice to save. And the op was specifically asking about saving weight.


Did not realize those frames are 5.5, thats retarded. You can find really nice riding steel frames for 4-4.5, an to frames for 3.5-4lbs. The lighter the flexier.

why not aluminum? it's cheap, light, with great power transfer, won't rust. with a nice set of crossmax wheels (still best bang for buck for combo of weight/strength/price out there imo) set up tubeless, the tires will soak up all the chatter and harshness that you need.

i've owned em all. had steel rust from the inside out, cracked carbon, broken my independent fabrications ti deluxe 29er, but never have had an issue with aluminum. my next bike will be alu fer sure. my new cross bike is alu and is amazing.

oh, and fuck 29ers, go 650b. the perfect wheel size.

rog

There are some steel frames out there that really aren't that much heavier than ti. On the flip side there are some really heavy steel frames out there too. I ride steel and would look at putting my money in other components (wheels and fork) over the frame. My steel 29er hardtail (1X9) was originally built up at 21.25lbs with some run of the mill parts.

In summary, I'm saying pretty much the same as Marshalolson. Stan's crest is a great affordable option over carbon but think they are a little flexy compared to previous wheelset I've been on.

Originally Posted by kidwoo

But those stiff carbon wheels are going to punch your taint even harder.

Maybe I'm projecting but the whole reason I'd be looking at ti is for the compliance and nut vibration damping over aluminum......has nothing to do with weight (unless you're talking about vs steel). But the vibration damping is why I ride a steel dirtjumper.

Ti seatpost, especially long and setback, would help about any aluminum XC frame taint comfort. Probably not all that helpful on a Dirt Jumper though.

Originally Posted by VTskibum

Probably not all that helpful on a Dirt Jumper though.

You kidding? I'd be the coolest kid on the starting hill, tight pants be damned!

How about scandium? Always seemed like a good compromise to me between steel (weight & corrosion), alu (comfort), and ti (cost). Though I'm with the people who say frame material is WAY overthought. Frame design, wheel & tire choice, seatpost & handlebars, even just what you had for breakfast all probably have a bigger influence on the actual ride.

I have had a couple Ti roadies, and they were wonderful bikes. They were expensive bikes too. I'm riding primarily steel now, and I'm just as happy, since I don't worry about weight a lot - if I want to count grams, I'll be less fat myself! I have found that steel offers me the best QUALITY ride, and since weight is not an issue, I use a Thudbuster on all my hard tail MTB's - and I couldn't be happier! Ti has really gotten a bit spendy for me, to the point that I will likely only ride steel or AL w/carbon stays now. The cost just didn't justify the differences in ride quality.

FWIW, I haven't ridden a bike I like more than my steel El Mar, at least as far as MTB's go. Mine was full rigid up until last week.

Originally Posted by kidwoo

You kidding? I'd be the coolest kid on the starting hill, tight pants be damned!

I meant more along the lines of more post exposed the better, but Ti is always cool. Though you might only get the "M" visible from the Moots seatpost sticker. Oh so blingy though.

I'm kinda ashamed of how much I spent on a custom Ti seatpost from Bold Precision, but then racing 28 miles over bumpy roots last weekend reminds me why....

I love my Ti bike. NOT for the weight, but for the vibration absorption. If you like that feel, it is soft, and nice for all day riding. If you dont it is flexy and soft. Same feel, different words.

You can find light or heavy versions in just about all frame materials. Go for the frame for the feel of the ride, go for lighter parts/wheels for the wight savings.

I have a Ti spork and it has performed flawlessly for years. The vibration dampening is impeccable and the weight savings is amazing.

Carbon with a Eriksen setback post. Rode an MCR for a couple of years, really liked it. Riding carbon now, huge difference in vibration and chatter. That and when you jump the pedals it scoots much better. Only thing is the funny sound when junk hits it.

Originally Posted by icelanticskier

why not aluminum? it's cheap, light, with great power transfer, won't rust. with a nice set of crossmax wheels (still best bang for buck for combo of weight/strength/price out there imo) set up tubeless, the tires will soak up all the chatter and harshness that you need.

i've owned em all. had steel rust from the inside out, cracked carbon, broken my independent fabrications ti deluxe 29er, but never have had an issue with aluminum. my next bike will be alu fer sure. my new cross bike is alu and is amazing.

oh, and fuck 29ers, go 650b. the perfect wheel size.

rog

I can't do Alu as a HT. I have a Giant Talon (Alu) which was basically given to me by a buddy who bought the wrong size. I took it out on a few rides, but the ride was just too harsh. The Talon is lighter and rides faster than my El Mar on paved roads, but is too harsh for 8+ hr rides on the trails I have been riding. I use the Talon now as my communte bike, which is perfect.

I'll look into several of the options listed above. Thanks for all the input.

i have a lynskey Ti hardtail that is a good bike for covering the miles. the MSRP on it was $1295...the Lynskey attic sometimes has pretty good deals on Ti frames but you have to keep an eye on it regularly.

i have an aluminum hardtail (yelli screamy) that i ride quite a bit...the large volume tires on there mean there's no perceived harshness difference compared to a similar steel bike, but I know that eventually that frame will fatigue crack. no big deal...it was cheap to begin with. for the long-distance rides you're doing, there is a peace of mind advantage to a good Ti or steel frame in terms of reducing (not eliminating) the chance of, say, a seattube/BB shell separation crack.

some Ti bikes are so flexy that the handling on off-camber rocky sections can be pretty sketchy. however there are plenty that are designed more for lateral stiffness. this new litespeed looks promising: http://reviews.mtbr.com/litespeed-co...ardtail-review

with hi end steel frames going for $1200+, my own opinion is that for just a little more you can get the advantages of Ti if you shop around.

also don't overlook the very good resale value of Ti. as with automobile purchases, that can really affect the true cost to you down the road.

I have three hardtails. Steel, titanium, and aluminum. The ti bike I like the least only because the aluminum has a dropper post. Sure the ti bike is the lightest but it is also the stiffest and most springy. I hurt the most after riding that bike. I think the ride quality of the steel bike is the best by far. I had a carbon hardtail as well a while back. That bike just felt dead and dull. Fast for sure but I couldn't abuse it in rock gardens. With carbon repair existing now I may not care as much...

Btw my moots is for sale. Like I said I don't like it much.

^ PM me details of your Moots.

Originally Posted by simple

Btw my moots is for sale. Like I said I don't like it much.

PM me the info?

I absolutely love my Salsa Selma Ti (same frame as El Mar, but sans accommodations for gears). Set up rigid with a Niner Carbon RDO fork and i9 wheels. It flys. The stiff wheels translate a bit of shock, but less so than I was getting on some of my other hard tails. We have 4 other guys at the shop I'm at that are all also riding on Ti hardtails (two El Mars, a Lynsky, and an Eriksen), and all love them far more than any of their other bikes.

With Marshal--If you already love the frame, honestly I'd build up a set of ENVE carbon wheels and keep the frame. If you are climbing 11k feet you'll notice the lower weight wheels a lot more than the lower weight frame.

I would not hesitate to put those enve mountain wheels on my bike. I ride with a few folks locally who ride them and they have all managed to break everything but those wheels. One stuffed his bike into the back of a car, crumpled the downtube and didnt so much as get a flat. One other has managed to break his Tallboy twice, but hasnt so much as trued his enve mountain wheels since buying them two years ago.

Someone mentioned stans wheels above--the lightest stans wheels are 100 grams heavier and come with a 170lb rider weight limit. I've ridden several sets of stans rims, and while I like them, they arent the most bomber thing I've used. If I could afford it I'd go for the ENVEs and be done with it.

Originally Posted by simple

Btw my moots is for sale. Like I said I don't like it much.

If its a 29'er PM me the details maybe? ybb?