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Thread: I suck at downhilling
08-12-2012, 04:12 PM #126
You can use this technique for tight switchbacks as well. You can practice this motion on asphalt with a slight decline, to get the feel.
You will soon realize that turning a bike is pretty much exactly the same as carving a ski. Just pretend you are skiing down the bike trail.
Last edited by iscariot; 08-12-2012 at 05:56 PM.
08-13-2012, 12:18 AM #127
No, you guys are misunderstanding. Not counter steering, not the inside hand. PUSH the bike over with your OUTSIDE hand. This places weight on top of the tire knobs rather than weight hanging over the inside of the knobs. Please, take me at my word. When trying to turn left, push the bike over with your right hand, and vice versa. Try it somewhere safe and bening (like the aforementioned road) until you get used to the added leverage over your bike and the increased traction.
08-13-2012, 07:59 AM #128
Had one of the best riding days of the year up in NJ yesterday at Mountain Creek Bike Park. Rains last week produced tacky dirt, temps were cool and skys were blue. This is my first year downhilling am only able to get up once a week or so. Hit my first sizeable drop (about 8-10 feet) and was super pumped on it. Way easier than I imagined just needed to get over the mental hurdle.
Was also able to work on a lot of the stuff in here. Thus far whats been working best for me is turning my hips with the turn and keeping pressure on the outside foot, but generally speaking im just trying to not brake and flow things as best as possible. I think nickel's push on the outside bar is an extension of the pressuring the outside foot idea. I'll give it a try on my midweek trail ride, but i'm not 100% sold on it yet.
Also found out one of our local rippers/pros is sponsed by Alkasquawlik/cody townsends belt company. Is it acceptable to give him a pro call out?Take everything you like seriously, except yourselves.
08-13-2012, 08:53 AM #129
Either that or you're going to have to post some video on turn initiation, so I can undetstand your description.
In either case, and perhaps not directly related, I avoid using one or the other side of my body for bike control. I find it better to have control action occurring from both sides, as this makes for greater stability, and for easier correction. If you go all in using one side, correction, strength, and in some cases stability are sacrificed. Stay loose with fluid but deliberate inputs.
08-13-2012, 09:20 AM #130
This. So you twist your hips and weight your outside foot. Good. Now what with your hands? If you pull the bike over, you're going to basically be hanging off the inside of the bars. the goal is to mimick what you're doing at the hips, but with your hands. If the "Push the bike over" terminology doesn't jive with you, let's put it another way. In the downhill road carving scenario, if you feather grip your inside hand so it's almost not holding on, you will have no other way to lean the bike over than what I am trying to describe by "push the bike over". (disclaimer: I am in no way advising feather gripping anything whilst trail riding, just as a skills practice in a safe environment)
This skill disconnects the rider angle from the bike angle in a pretty big way. It is a pure extension of "twisting the hips" and "pointing the belly button into the turn" .
Iscariot, it shouldn't be a pulling motion unless you're hanging off the bars. If your weight is well distributed between feet and hands, it will/should feel like leaning on the outside hand, which effectively moves under your core as the bike leans over into the turn.
Edit: Just thought more about the way you're seeing it though and maybe I need to be more detailed. I think our disconnect comes from a little earlier in turn initiation. Visualise the hip twisting from the two videos posted (hey coach and fabien barel's cornering) and from that position perhaps you can more easily visualise the push... Maybe think of it as throwing a hook punch? Basically you're using your outside hand to bring that side of that bars across your chest. If you're pulling, then your body is already leaning more than your bike. It should most often be the other way around.
Hopefully this makes more sense to you guys. Take it or leave it, but this skill was a big confidence booster once mastered when I was doing some teaching.
08-13-2012, 11:44 AM #131
Okay. I get what you're saying now.
Yes, in some types of turns. Yours is a complex explaination for something that, for me, tends to occur intuitively or automatically as a result of my description of carving a turn.
Additionally, (and contrarly to your description, unfortunately) after the initial bar intput to initiate the turn, most of my steering and turn is generated through my feet, with very little tension on ths bars until the end of the turn. Then I use bar action in conjunction with the release of pressure on the pedals, and the rebound of the bike to exit the corner like a spring.
I "feather grip" the entire time I'm riding trails, unless steering inputs are needed. Don't hang on tight.
Last edited by iscariot; 08-13-2012 at 11:56 AM.
08-13-2012, 12:04 PM #132
Second, what you say is not contrary to my description at all. turn entry is only part of a turn. Sure, a lot of input comes from the feet. A solid 70% most of the time. There should still be bar input though, otherwise you're hanging a little off the back I'd guess. Also, what about flat corners? Flat corners require a lot of front end input for weight distribution, pressure control, drift management, and to generate traction.
Third, try taking a foot off for a super tight or super fast loose corner, and tell me you can lean your bike way over without heavily leaning on your bars.
You mention "tension on the bars". there shouldn't be "tension" on the bars unless your lifting the front end for manualing sections or to ollie over something. There should be pressure on the bars.
08-13-2012, 01:18 PM #133
Watch guys in slowmo video when they come out of a corner, and their rear wheel is wobbling from the recoil. That's them using the rear wheel to turn and accelerate out of the turn. Much in the same way a skier will pop their ankles and heels for a split second to get energy back form a ski to really finish a turn and accelerate out.
If someone has weight on your bars after the initial input in a turn, its likely that their ass is way up in the air and their knees/legs are locked ie. no suspension/traction from dynamic legs and arms. Again, sometimes further input is required in a turn; however, IMHO, this means that there was an error in the setup for the turn and this is an undesirable outcome of improper setup. Not that improper setups don't occur, they certainly do and require correction.
Either way, I have a feeling that we're describing the same thing, but using different language to do it. Hopefully people can learn form this and improve.
Last edited by iscariot; 08-13-2012 at 03:09 PM.
08-13-2012, 05:50 PM #134
If you're ever up in whistler, shoot me a PM for the real, in person ridings. I bet it would be fun.
08-13-2012, 06:22 PM #135
I hit up whistler every summer, actually I'll be out there in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately I fractured my heel bone about a month ago (thus my prolific posting rate for the last few weeks) and riding may not be permitted, and certainly will be weak at best. Have to see how things progress as I started walking, well limping really, without crutches for the first time yesterday.
08-13-2012, 07:39 PM #136
That is a shitty deal indeed. The offer still stands if you're mended up by then, always nice to meet/shred with new people!
Speedy recovery to ya
08-13-2012, 08:05 PM #137
If I'm good to go, I'll let you know. In the meantime, rip a lap of crack addict for me.
08-13-2012, 08:09 PM #138
I've typically always rounded out my corners and never really trusted my tires, even when I rode beefy tires that I trusted, I still didn't change my technique. I have no issues with leaning the bike over, just my turn shape was always very round and smooth.
I've always wondered how kidwoo et al. squared off turns. The image that stuck with me was the one Woo used about describing which tires work for which person, with the 3 guys riding by the camera into a hard left corner. Two of them nailed the corner / berm super hard and quickly changed directions.
The other day on really mellow trails I was attempting to square off turns as much as possible and I realize that my even-constant-pressure building and rounding off may not be the best. I started to drive and compress the bike. Low and behold, the tires still stuck and I was starting the square 'em off. It felt a bit faster and actually more in control because I only had 2 seconds to slip vs. 10 where it could happen anytime.
I think I'm moving in the right direction. (super pun)
08-13-2012, 08:41 PM #139
Wow...it's the epicski thread of the biking world LOL... seriously though some really good info in here that has helped improve my riding in a very short time.
08-13-2012, 09:06 PM #140
08-14-2012, 09:44 PM #141
I dont hit the brakes ever, the wind slows me down plenty
I found that closing my eyes in the rough stuff really helps
PBR, PBR, PBR
08-14-2012, 11:09 PM #142Life is tough. It's tougher when you're stupid
08-15-2012, 11:53 AM #143Registered User
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Be smooth, let the bike do the work you just tell it where to go. A major influence on my riding is my xc on my hardtail. If you can ride that smooth then when you get back on a rocketship you will look at things much different, plus it helps build muscle.
08-24-2012, 12:46 AM #144
Glad I read this all the way through. I think the best thing I got from it was to lean the bike more in a corner, which I hadn't been doing. On the road bike it's better to try to stay in-line with the bike mostly just to keep from side-loading the wheels. Just a little more lean relative to my body really helped today so thanks everyone especially kidwoo.