Thread: I suck at downhilling

Originally Posted by Summit

You meant to type inside hand, right? Or am I completely confused?

I think he's trying to describe counter steering. If that's the case, then you are correct. Pull towards yourself with the outside hand and push away from yourself with the inside hand; do this in a flicking motion. Once the bike tips inside, weight the outside pedal. Compress the suspension with a quick push on the pedals (kind of like a flick of the ankles and feet) to get the bike to bite at the apex, and rocket you out of the berm (ideally the flick of the bars, pedal weighting, suspension pop can be done in one smooth continuous motion of the aforementioned steps). Aim low in the slope of the turn for more flick; aim high in the berm to feel like an airplane (it helps if you make airplane noises when taking the high line). It's better if you don't brake. By the time the bike begins to tip in, you should be looking well out the end of the berm. Stay relaxed and don't lock your legs or arms.

You can use this technique for tight switchbacks as well. You can practice this motion on asphalt with a slight decline, to get the feel.


You will soon realize that turning a bike is pretty much exactly the same as carving a ski. Just pretend you are skiing down the bike trail.

No, you guys are misunderstanding. Not counter steering, not the inside hand. PUSH the bike over with your OUTSIDE hand. This places weight on top of the tire knobs rather than weight hanging over the inside of the knobs. Please, take me at my word. When trying to turn left, push the bike over with your right hand, and vice versa. Try it somewhere safe and bening (like the aforementioned road) until you get used to the added leverage over your bike and the increased traction.

Had one of the best riding days of the year up in NJ yesterday at Mountain Creek Bike Park. Rains last week produced tacky dirt, temps were cool and skys were blue. This is my first year downhilling am only able to get up once a week or so. Hit my first sizeable drop (about 8-10 feet) and was super pumped on it. Way easier than I imagined just needed to get over the mental hurdle.

Was also able to work on a lot of the stuff in here. Thus far whats been working best for me is turning my hips with the turn and keeping pressure on the outside foot, but generally speaking im just trying to not brake and flow things as best as possible. I think nickel's push on the outside bar is an extension of the pressuring the outside foot idea. I'll give it a try on my midweek trail ride, but i'm not 100% sold on it yet.

Also found out one of our local rippers/pros is sponsed by Alkasquawlik/cody townsends belt company. Is it acceptable to give him a pro call out?

Originally Posted by nickel

No, you guys are misunderstanding. Not counter steering, not the inside hand. PUSH the bike over with your OUTSIDE hand. This places weight on top of the tire knobs rather than weight hanging over the inside of the knobs. Please, take me at my word. When trying to turn left, push the bike over with your right hand, and vice versa. Try it somewhere safe and bening (like the aforementioned road) until you get used to the added leverage over your bike and the increased traction.

If you're using your outside hand to tip the bike to the inside, you'd have to PULL the bike over with the outside hand, not push on the outside had.

Either that or you're going to have to post some video on turn initiation, so I can undetstand your description.

In either case, and perhaps not directly related, I avoid using one or the other side of my body for bike control. I find it better to have control action occurring from both sides, as this makes for greater stability, and for easier correction. If you go all in using one side, correction, strength, and in some cases stability are sacrificed. Stay loose with fluid but deliberate inputs.

Originally Posted by chatton18

Thus far whats been working best for me is turning my hips with the turn and keeping pressure on the outside foot...... I think nickel's push on the outside bar is an extension of the pressuring the outside foot idea. I'll give it a try on my midweek trail ride, but i'm not 100% sold on it yet.

This. So you twist your hips and weight your outside foot. Good. Now what with your hands? If you pull the bike over, you're going to basically be hanging off the inside of the bars. the goal is to mimick what you're doing at the hips, but with your hands. If the "Push the bike over" terminology doesn't jive with you, let's put it another way. In the downhill road carving scenario, if you feather grip your inside hand so it's almost not holding on, you will have no other way to lean the bike over than what I am trying to describe by "push the bike over". (disclaimer: I am in no way advising feather gripping anything whilst trail riding, just as a skills practice in a safe environment)

This skill disconnects the rider angle from the bike angle in a pretty big way. It is a pure extension of "twisting the hips" and "pointing the belly button into the turn" .

Iscariot, it shouldn't be a pulling motion unless you're hanging off the bars. If your weight is well distributed between feet and hands, it will/should feel like leaning on the outside hand, which effectively moves under your core as the bike leans over into the turn.

Edit: Just thought more about the way you're seeing it though and maybe I need to be more detailed. I think our disconnect comes from a little earlier in turn initiation. Visualise the hip twisting from the two videos posted (hey coach and fabien barel's cornering) and from that position perhaps you can more easily visualise the push... Maybe think of it as throwing a hook punch? Basically you're using your outside hand to bring that side of that bars across your chest. If you're pulling, then your body is already leaning more than your bike. It should most often be the other way around.

Hopefully this makes more sense to you guys. Take it or leave it, but this skill was a big confidence booster once mastered when I was doing some teaching.

Okay. I get what you're saying now.

Yes, in some types of turns. Yours is a complex explaination for something that, for me, tends to occur intuitively or automatically as a result of my description of carving a turn.

Additionally, (and contrarly to your description, unfortunately) after the initial bar intput to initiate the turn, most of my steering and turn is generated through my feet, with very little tension on ths bars until the end of the turn. Then I use bar action in conjunction with the release of pressure on the pedals, and the rebound of the bike to exit the corner like a spring.

I "feather grip" the entire time I'm riding trails, unless steering inputs are needed. Don't hang on tight.

Originally Posted by iscariot

Additionally, (and contrarly to your description, unfortunately) after the initial bar intput to initiate the turn, most of my steering and turn is generated through my feet, with very little tension on ths bars until the end of the turn. Then I use bar action in conjunction with the release of pressure on the pedals, and the rebound of the bike to exit the corner like a spring.

I "feather grip" the entire time I'm riding trails, unless steering inputs are needed. Don't hang on tight.

Ok first, by feather grip for a training excercise, I literally meant finger tips, barely holding on with the inside hand.

Second, what you say is not contrary to my description at all. turn entry is only part of a turn. Sure, a lot of input comes from the feet. A solid 70% most of the time. There should still be bar input though, otherwise you're hanging a little off the back I'd guess. Also, what about flat corners? Flat corners require a lot of front end input for weight distribution, pressure control, drift management, and to generate traction.

Third, try taking a foot off for a super tight or super fast loose corner, and tell me you can lean your bike way over without heavily leaning on your bars.
You mention "tension on the bars". there shouldn't be "tension" on the bars unless your lifting the front end for manualing sections or to ollie over something. There should be pressure on the bars.

Originally Posted by nickel

Ok first, by feather grip for a training excercise, I literally meant finger tips, barely holding on with the inside hand.

Again...I barely hold on in most situations.

Originally Posted by nickel

Second, what you say is not contrary to my description at all. turn entry is only part of a turn. Sure, a lot of input comes from the feet. A solid 70% most of the time. There should still be bar input though, otherwise you're hanging a little off the back I'd guess.

Just because you don't have weight on the bars doesn't mean that you're hanging off the back. In fact, hanging off the back would mean that you have to hold onto the bars to keep from going out the back door. Having your weight centered or forward on the bike, holding yourself up with you core by bringing you hips forward and upward toward your belly button, will allow you to not have to hold on tight to the bars, because your feet and core are holding your weight.

Originally Posted by nickel

Also, what about flat corners? Flat corners require a lot of front end input for weight distribution, pressure control, drift management, and to generate traction.

If you are in the correct riding position, as described above, you can use the entire bike to bite into a corner. You could use only the front or use "a lot of front", however, having the front and rear hook up through proper weighting gives you flow through the corner. Front end input for turn initiation is necessary; however, if you have "a lot of front end input" throughout the corner, you aren't using your whole bike to turn.

Originally Posted by nickel

Third, try taking a foot off for a super tight or super fast loose corner, and tell me you can lean your bike way over without heavily leaning on your bars.

As per your above re: drift management: Drifting into a corner isn't necessarily a bad thing. I tend to tap the brakes and lean over to do controlled two wheel drifts into these types of corners. Drop the bars inside, weight the pedals, and then hook up on the outer lugs. Then grab the bars and pound the pedals out of the corner, as your bike rebounds to make the most of the energy your bike is giving back. I rarely put my foot down. If I do, it's because I made a mistake in my balance. I can put my foot down to look cool, and as a tripod for balance at speeds; however, IMHO having to do this means that you have misjudged the setup for the corner.

Originally Posted by nickel

You mention "tension on the bars". there shouldn't be "tension" on the bars unless your lifting the front end for manualing sections or to ollie over something. There should be pressure on the bars.

By "very little tension in the bars" I was indicating that you really shouldn't need bar input or weight on the bars after the initial input to set up the turn. You can be very forward on your bike and still have very little weight/input/tension/pressure on your bars. Bend and keep your elbows loose, and hold yourself with your core. Your hands, arms, and elbows, should be loose and relaxed, with your weight centered or forward, with your core holding your weight, and hips forward and upward towards your belly. I agree with you that hips and belly button pointing through the turn generally sets up a feet weighting and that, accompanied with an ankle flick into the suspension at the right point in the turn, will get you through a turn quickly and efficiently. I don't rely on my front tire exclusively for traction, I rely on both wheels and a pop of pressure loading the suspension. In fact, if you really want to flick a corner, you tip the bike and use your ankles to flick the back wheel, not the front.

Watch guys in slowmo video when they come out of a corner, and their rear wheel is wobbling from the recoil. That's them using the rear wheel to turn and accelerate out of the turn. Much in the same way a skier will pop their ankles and heels for a split second to get energy back form a ski to really finish a turn and accelerate out.

If someone has weight on your bars after the initial input in a turn, its likely that their ass is way up in the air and their knees/legs are locked ie. no suspension/traction from dynamic legs and arms. Again, sometimes further input is required in a turn; however, IMHO, this means that there was an error in the setup for the turn and this is an undesirable outcome of improper setup. Not that improper setups don't occur, they certainly do and require correction.


Either way, I have a feeling that we're describing the same thing, but using different language to do it. Hopefully people can learn form this and improve.

Originally Posted by iscariot

Either way, I have a feeling that we're describing the same thing, but using different language to do it. Hopefully people can learn form this and improve.

This is probably the truth and we are most likely arguing over who has the most awesome grasp of semantics. The way the conversation is going, I feel like we both assume the other is saying something they're not. It is also pretty evident that describing to others how to mountain bike using words over the interwebz is incredibly difficult and probably destined to end in argument and debate.

If you're ever up in whistler, shoot me a PM for the real, in person ridings. I bet it would be fun.

Originally Posted by nickel

This is probably the truth and we are most likely arguing over who has the most awesome grasp of semantics. The way the conversation is going, I feel like we both assume the other is saying something they're not. It is also pretty evident that describing to others how to mountain bike using words over the interwebz is incredibly difficult and probably destined to end in argument and debate.

If you're ever up in whistler, shoot me a PM for the real, in person ridings. I bet it would be fun.

True true.

I hit up whistler every summer, actually I'll be out there in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately I fractured my heel bone about a month ago (thus my prolific posting rate for the last few weeks) and riding may not be permitted, and certainly will be weak at best. Have to see how things progress as I started walking, well limping really, without crutches for the first time yesterday.

That is a shitty deal indeed. The offer still stands if you're mended up by then, always nice to meet/shred with new people!

Speedy recovery to ya

Thanks dood.

If I'm good to go, I'll let you know. In the meantime, rip a lap of crack addict for me.

I've typically always rounded out my corners and never really trusted my tires, even when I rode beefy tires that I trusted, I still didn't change my technique. I have no issues with leaning the bike over, just my turn shape was always very round and smooth.

I've always wondered how kidwoo et al. squared off turns. The image that stuck with me was the one Woo used about describing which tires work for which person, with the 3 guys riding by the camera into a hard left corner. Two of them nailed the corner / berm super hard and quickly changed directions.

The other day on really mellow trails I was attempting to square off turns as much as possible and I realize that my even-constant-pressure building and rounding off may not be the best. I started to drive and compress the bike. Low and behold, the tires still stuck and I was starting the square 'em off. It felt a bit faster and actually more in control because I only had 2 seconds to slip vs. 10 where it could happen anytime.

I think I'm moving in the right direction. (super pun)

Wow...it's the epicski thread of the biking world LOL... seriously though some really good info in here that has helped improve my riding in a very short time.

Originally Posted by time2clmb

Wow...it's the epicski thread of the biking world LOL...

Paging Alpine Zone Greg to the white courtesy phone...

I dont hit the brakes ever, the wind slows me down plenty

I found that closing my eyes in the rough stuff really helps

PBR, PBR, PBR

Originally Posted by JayPowHound

Think the guy with the frying pans is super jealous of the dude with the frame and bars?

I think they are all jealous of the guy with a chainsaw motor

Be smooth, let the bike do the work you just tell it where to go. A major influence on my riding is my xc on my hardtail. If you can ride that smooth then when you get back on a rocketship you will look at things much different, plus it helps build muscle.

Glad I read this all the way through. I think the best thing I got from it was to lean the bike more in a corner, which I hadn't been doing. On the road bike it's better to try to stay in-line with the bike mostly just to keep from side-loading the wheels. Just a little more lean relative to my body really helped today so thanks everyone especially kidwoo.