Thread: Audi's Quattro vs Subaru's Symmetrical AWD - Yes, ANOTHER pointless face off

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

The OP said he wanted a better handling car for the summer instead of his 4x4 SUV but needed one that was great in snow.

How does a Wrangler fit this bill?

oh it doesn't. i was just ramblin.

Originally Posted by jfost

for context (question is difference between 'like' and 'love'):

"see, I like my sketchers, but I love my prada backpack..."

"but I love my sketchers..."

"that's because you don't have a prada backpack."

Phony Gasworks Park paintball scene notwithstanding, one of the greatest movies of all time...

Ohhhhh! Hahahahaha. I gotcha. I think that's what pretty much always happens in these Subaru versus XYZ comparisons.

Originally Posted by uglymoney

My 02 Outback with a five speed uses a viscous center coupling that sends power mechanically away from the spinning tires to the front or rear. It also has a rear LSD differential. I think it is a fluid LSD system and not mechanical but it still works. That was standard on 02 Outbacks but if I remember correctly from shopping in 01 it only came on Outbacks with the winter package so not all Subaru's of that era had a LSD rear and I'm not sure about the new ones. Back then it was on the window stickers if it had them. The front differential is open. Anyway with that combo and four snows the car is a snowmobile in the winter. Almost unbelievable actually. I've plowed up and down roads drifted almost shut past many a stuck SUV and it is super fun to drive since you can kick the tail out at will.

Austin: My 2009 manual Outback has the same LSD rear differential he is talking about. So I have 50-50 split, plus limited slip in the back, so I always have power going to 3 wheels. You've been to Big Sky so you know the road conditions, this car is by far the best snow vehicle I have ever owned. I plan to own this car forever. 75K miles in 3 years with only routine maintence. Real world mpg in Montana avg. 27.8 mpg per my records. (I rarely go over 65 mph, even in Montana).

Note: the rear LSD (Limited Slip Differential) was only on Outbacks labeled as Outback SE (Special Edition). It came with both autos and manuals, but only if it was marked "SE". This was 2009, no idea about any other years. Makes a huge difference. I've been in several feet of wet slick snow, lots of Tahoes/Suburbans stuck, but my Subie just putt-putted right on through.

Originally Posted by jfost

one of the greatest movies of all time...

Arrrrgh. Never seen it. Hugh's quote makes some more sense now.

Originally Posted by Harry

Note: the rear LSD (Limited Slip Differential) was only on Outbacks labeled as Outback SE (Special Edition). It came with both autos and manuals, but only if it was marked "SE". This was 2009, no idea about any other years. Makes a huge difference. I've been in several feet of wet slick snow, lots of Tahoes/Suburbans stuck, but my Subie just putt-putted right on through.

1996-1999 No rear LSD, not even an option.
2000-2002 LSD was available as part of the All Weather Package, if you have heated seats and mirrors, you have a rear LSD.
2003-2006 The All Weather Package became standard equipment, so all these cars have rear LSD.
2007-2010 Subaru came out with a "Base" model (called 2.5i Basic in 2007, just called the 2.5i thereafter). These models did not come with rear LSD. All the higher trim levels came with the All Weather equipment, and have an LSD.

Originally Posted by wcf3

One of the problems with understanding Subaru AWD systems is that there have been so many different ones on various models over the years. A 'fairly' complete list of the different types and models can be found at:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...pt-48112.html?

WOW! Perfect link! Exactly the sort of information I'm looking for!

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

The OP said he wanted a better handling car for the summer instead of his 4x4 SUV but needed one that was great in snow.

How does a Wrangler fit this bill?

Pretty much, but don't mind the Wrangler ramblings. They are pretty awesome, but yeah, not really applicable in this particular conversation.

Maybe I should elaborate on my current car quiver, which I'm looking to reduce. I have an old Cadillac CTS-V. Rear wheel drive beast that while great year-round down South, is pretty well worthless up here half the year. Thus, I bought an old Chevy Trailblazer. 4x4 and unstoppable in the snow (especially with some good snows on it!), but drives like ass compared to any good car, and gets horrible gas mileage. Sucky summer vehicle. I LOVE having it for camping and hiking though, as I have some great A/T tires for it, so it's been a surprisingly great trail vehicle. Was cheap to buy, cheap to maintain, and more importantly has been a great ski vehicle. My wife came into our marriage in the same exact predicament. She has a Mustang GT (also with a stick), which she absolutely loves. She also has an old Jeep Grand Cherokee. Both have exactly the same pros/cons as my vehicles. So that's four vehicles in my stable now! Freaking retarded when I think about it. We will be selling the Jeep this summer, so that brings us down to three. Would be great to find a ride that can be a good replacement for her Jeep and Mustang. Thus, we want fun to drive (re: stick and powerful), can fit the dogs in the back, our skis on top, and is good year round. That will be a vehicle that we would share more, as I'm really reluctant to get rid of the V, and I guess the Trailblazer can continue be good for deep snow and medium off-roading. If we get a Subaru/Audi/BMW, it would be primarily hers, but I'd use it for long commutes, road trips, and trips to the ski hill.

Sorry for the stupid long explanation, but that's why I'm interested in learning about the details of each maker's awd systems. I wanna really nail it on my next car purchase.

BTW, anybody want a used '99 Jeep GC with almost 200k and an oil leak? Would be cheap! Hehe.

Originally Posted by Harry

Austin: My 2009 manual Outback has the same LSD rear differential he is talking about. So I have 50-50 split, plus limited slip in the back, so I always have power going to 3 wheels. You've been to Big Sky so you know the road conditions, this car is by far the best snow vehicle I have ever owned. I plan to own this car forever. 75K miles in 3 years with only routine maintence. Real world mpg in Montana avg. 27.8 mpg per my records. (I rarely go over 65 mph, even in Montana).

Note: the rear LSD (Limited Slip Differential) was only on Outbacks labeled as Outback SE (Special Edition). It came with both autos and manuals, but only if it was marked "SE". This was 2009, no idea about any other years. Makes a huge difference. I've been in several feet of wet slick snow, lots of Tahoes/Suburbans stuck, but my Subie just putt-putted right on through.

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

1996-1999 No rear LSD, not even an option.
2000-2002 LSD was available as part of the All Weather Package, if you have heated seats and mirrors, you have a rear LSD.
2003-2006 The All Weather Package became standard equipment, so all these cars have rear LSD.
2007-2010 Subaru came out with a "Base" model (called 2.5i Basic in 2007, just called the 2.5i thereafter). These models did not come with rear LSD. All the higher trim levels came with the All Weather equipment, and have an LSD.

Good to know! I would've never known these things if I was out car shopping. I highly doubt the salesmen would know all those differences either. You guys rock. This is why I love TGR. Always a solid wealth of information! Would be great to see those kinds of comparisons among different Audi and Beemer models now, unless they're all kind of the same.

Wow! Great linky with the LSD data all tracked down PNWbrit.

Sent from my LSD enabled Subaru using TGR Forums

I always preferred sandoz LSD.

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

1996-1999 No rear LSD, not even an option.
2000-2002 LSD was available as part of the All Weather Package, if you have heated seats and mirrors, you have a rear LSD.
2003-2006 The All Weather Package became standard equipment, so all these cars have rear LSD.
2007-2010 Subaru came out with a "Base" model (called 2.5i Basic in 2007, just called the 2.5i thereafter). These models did not come with rear LSD. All the higher trim levels came with the All Weather equipment, and have an LSD.

I read that link, and it certainly sounds authoritative.

But I am not sure it is correct. I'm the original owner and I still have the window sticker. The "All Weather Equipment" is listed as one option ($500 +), and the "Viscous Limited Slip Rear Differential" is listed as a seperate option ($1,100+).

Either way, it turns a manual Subaru into a D8 Cat.

We almost bought an Audi A4 until we found out it had 4 inches of ground clearance. AWD doesn't do much good when you high center it and the wheels stop turning. (I've high centered my Subie, which has 9 inches, but that's because I'm too lazy to shovel.) Whether those clearance numbers are real is another question--we all know that one man's 4 inches is another man's 9.

Subarus have an incredible ability to move with almost no traction, but I think they also drive a bit loose. I say that having never owned one, but with thousands of miles of snowy road trip behind the wheel. That can be really fun, but requires attention and a little skill. I think the Torsen diff Audi is the most "on rails" of anything I have ever driven in the snow. I know nothing about their other setups.

If you do a lot of stop and go on icy hills or uneven surfaces (like snowy trailhead lots) I'd give the nudge to Subaru. Audi gets a bump If its more winding roads, or slippery spots that creep up unexpectedly. To say it differently, if all four wheels are spinning, Subaru is better, if you have grip somewhere, Audi is better IMO.

I think viscous coupling setups are inherently less durable, which you may want to consider since you will be shopping well used.

Here's a wrench and hijack. What say yee about the 4motion? I have a Passat and a Tiguan and they both mach through the snow and the tiptronic allows for solid control. Anyone else have experience with the 4motion system.

Originally Posted by Chowda

Subarus have an incredible ability to move with almost no traction

Just after we got our first Outback in 05 and having just put snow tires on it, Seattle area had a horrible evening rush hour snowstorm that ground the city to halt. When we finally made it through traffic and over Lake Washington to our neighborhood in the east-side foot hills we found a neighbor in his off-road specced Land Rover Discovery unable to make it up the last very steep hill to our houses, He was completely stuck with wheels spinning hopelessly on compacted snow/ice covered with fresh snow and repeatedly just sliding backwards.. We made it up same slope with zero problem. Not sure what made me think I was going to be able to get up it when he couldn't but was very impressed and sold on Subaru from that point.

Other than high centering (but clearance is about same as most SUVs anyway) only problems I've had are the rather small wheel wells are prone to fill with snow and the long front overhang can get hung up.

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

... we found a neighbor in his off-road specced Land Rover Discovery unable to make it up the last very steep hill to our houses, He was completely stuck with wheels spinning hopelessly on compacted snow/ice covered with fresh snow and repeatedly just sliding backwards.. We made it up same slope with zero problem. ....

did you help him out or just flip the bird as you rolled on by?

Originally Posted by commonlaw

Here's a wrench and hijack. What say yee about the 4motion? I have a Passat and a Tiguan and they both mach through the snow and the tiptronic allows for solid control. Anyone else have experience with the 4motion system.

Just bought a 2012 4 door Golf R with the new Haldex AWD. I can't wait for icy highways to try out the Haldex AWD and stability control. It should put the older Haldex and Quattrotechnology to shame which is hard to believe.

Originally Posted by DudeLebowSKI

Just bought a 2012 4 door Golf R with the new Haldex AWD. I can't wait for icy highways to try out the Haldex AWD and stability control. It should put the older Haldex and Quattrotechnology to shame which is hard to believe.

Lucky bastard. Have fun.

I believe Audi actually has a better AWD system than Subaru ie you can replace one tire without the diffs eating themselves, and stuff like that.
However, they will be more expensive to drive/fuel/maintain, they have less ground clearance, and thinner tires.
Subaru MTs and ATs run pretty different systems and the AT can be very very front biased, but it has changed a bit since my 03 Legacy with no VDC, Limited Slip Diffs or anything other than starting to adjust after you start slipping. However, I believe in with the limiter in the lower gears (2,1), the power split is 50/50. With decent all seasons the car feels like it sticks like glue going up and down the Snowbowl road.

Does anyone bother making a sporty AWD car that's not just for pavement munching anymore? WRX, WRX STi, and Golf R don't look like their made for anything rougher than perfect pavement that's a little wet, IMHO.

Oh, and Audi's AWD is symmetrical.

I know little other than the fact that I drove my rusty Legacy with regular snow tires 3-4 hrs each way to skiing in New England in sleet, freezing rain and countless blizzards for several years. I've driven across the country in winter twice and pushed through tons of PNW slush and mank going up to the passes for two years and parking in the slickest, muckiest, ice covered snow-buried parking lots that a low-clearance vehicle can get into all and not once have I come even vaguely close to getting stuck. Even the older Subaru awd is just so damned useful and dependable when it comes to traction that I have a hard time considering anything else. For the non--car-nut who just wants to be able to get to skiing safely, without hassle and without shitting a brick as you fishtail up snowy access roads they get the job done.

Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

Does anyone bother making a sporty AWD car that's not just for pavement munching anymore? WRX, WRX STi, and Golf R don't look like their made for anything rougher than perfect pavement that's a little wet, IMHO.

Oh, and Audi's AWD is symmetrical.

I don't know about pavement munching but I am looking forward to a little of this: http://www.carsvibe.com/video-two-vw...n-ice-304.html

i drove an 05 passat 4motion the last 2 years. now its an 06 legacy wagon mt. the passat was a beast in the snow. compared to the subie rs i had previously it was a tank. with their weight and a good pair of snows you wont leave the road. i honestly wentback to a subaru because it got boring to drive the passat in the winter, i never even fishtailed once and i drive decently hard. it also got over 30 mpg on highway trips, so id say im a fan.

Originally Posted by shroom

i drove an 05 passat 4motion the last 2 years. now its an 06 legacy wagon mt. the passat was a beast in the snow. compared to the subie rs i had previously it was a tank. with their weight and a good pair of snows you wont leave the road. i honestly wentback to a subaru because it got boring to drive the passat in the winter, i never even fishtailed once and i drive decently hard. it also got over 30 mpg on highway trips, so id say im a fan.

Same here. Nary a slip in mine. Just seems slightly odd to me that everyone here posts about Subies and Audi, hell even X bimmers but are pretty hush on VW's. Maybe they aren't cool enough but mine have always performed well, have all the same amenities as the Audi if you get the top end models and are obviously cheaper to purchase and maintain. That little 2.0T in the Tiguan is fairly fun with good mileage if you arent mashing.

Mini country man?

I have seen some sweet factory customized ones awd, stick, turbo. made by bmw.... i'm rambling again.

Originally Posted by commonlaw

Same here. Nary a slip in mine. Just seems slightly odd to me that everyone here posts about Subies and Audi, hell even X bimmers but are pretty hush on VW's. Maybe they aren't cool enough...

It's not that they're not cool enough. VW's problem is that here in the states, the ONLY car they offer with all-wheel drive AND a stick, is the Golf R. If you want 4Motion in any of their other vehicles, they force you to have an AT. Lame. That's at least why I don't want a VW, with the exception of the R. That thing's pretty freaking rad.

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

It's not that they're not cool enough. VW's problem is that here in the states, the ONLY car they offer with all-wheel drive AND a stick, is the Golf R. If you want 4Motion in any of their other vehicles, they force you to have an AT. Lame. That's at least why I don't want a VW, with the exception of the R. That thing's pretty freaking rad.

I hear you but I would recommend driving a v6 passat with tiptronic and see if you like the drive more than a subie manual. I like a manual as much as the next guy, but unless you are driving a WRX, STi or Legacy specB (which the vast majority of winter enthusiasts aren't), you are driving something more anemic than the VW.