Thread: Audi's Quattro vs Subaru's Symmetrical AWD - Yes, ANOTHER pointless face off

skechers or prada backpack?

Originally Posted by plugboots

I'll add that my '07 328xit and my '11 328xit have very good AWD sysytems that are equal or better, (opinion here), than the Audi or Subie, (I drove a new Outback recently). I prefer the slight rear bias now. You can turn off all nanny devices easily, too. Remember I said prefer.

After you talking about your Beemer in the Volvo thread, you actually got me thinking about this, too. The 328/350xit really has about everything I want in a car. Glad to hear the awd is so good, and LOVE that you can switch the nanny devices off. Big thumbs up for that.

Originally Posted by plugboots

I'm comparing all with Hankook studded snows, BTW, except the new Subaru, and I took that into account.

That's the kind of apples to apples comparo I'm looking for! Thanks.

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

The negligible difference between their AWD systems is not a deal breaker. Get the car you want. Or just the best deal on any you can find locally.

Yeah, I guess that's what it boils down to in the end. So the general consensus seems to be that there's really not whole ton of difference in their effectiveness across the board (audi, sub, bmw).

Originally Posted by Big Steve

........

Kinda seems like yet another apples to oranges comparison. Being that I couldn't understand the language being spoken, I'm going to assume these were bone stock vehicles. They have different tires, vastly different motors, different drivers, don't know if some are manuals or autos. Unless they're using the exact same tires, drivers, and such, seems like a worthless comparison.

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

seems like a worthless comparison.

That's what I said already.... so did Hugh.

I think?

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

skechers or prada backpack?

Subie AWD system combined with boxer flat low engine makes for best AWD period. Audi is close, but split is not true 50/50. Differential on STI is insane and fully adjustable. Your kidding yourself on costs are close. They are not, but you stated you don't care so a moot point. Get back to us after you pick it and drive it......

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

So casting the reliability issues, or initial costs, or overall maintenance aside, I'd like to talk strictly about the AWD systems in either car. I guess I should also make the point that I only want a car with a stick. Cool that a stick gives you the 50/50 split in the Subie!

You're really asking about traction control. A basic AWD (like you'd get in a RAV4) has an open centre diff and open diffs front and rear. This means that the power will flow to the wheel with the least resistance. That's what you see in videos on ice or rollers -- one wheel spinning. Audi, Subaru, BMW (x-drive) use computer controlled viscous couplings or clutches in the diffs to balance the power to all four wheels. What matters is quicly the computer can react and how smoothly can it move the power around. With all the software involved there's no point talking about the mechanical differences. The Grand Cherokee uses electronically controlled limited slip differencials all around. It's more about not getting stuck which is different than traction control. My 4WD truck has a transfer case (no center diff) and a LSD in the back so it drives all the wheels all the time. Great for off road but not meant for pavement.

"well used", eh? Hope you have a thick wallet.

Originally Posted by Snow Dog

You're really asking about traction control. A basic AWD (like you'd get in a RAV4) has an open centre diff and open diffs front and rear. This means that the power will flow to the wheel with the least resistance. That's what you see in videos on ice or rollers -- one wheel spinning. Audi, Subaru, BMW (x-drive) use computer controlled viscous couplings or clutches in the diffs to balance the power to all four wheels. What matters is quicly the computer can react and how smoothly can it move the power around. With all the software involved there's no point talking about the mechanical differences. The Grand Cherokee uses electronically controlled limited slip differencials all around. It's more about not getting stuck which is different than traction control. My 4WD truck has a transfer case (no center diff) and a LSD in the back so it drives all the wheels all the time. Great for off road but not meant for pavement.

It is true that the question comes down to the type of differentials used (both center and side to side). It is not true though that the mechanism isn't important (e.g. viscous coupling vs.torsen).

For a discussion of the various types, see: http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...tion_4wd_2.htm

Originally Posted by Snow Dog

You're really asking about traction control. A basic AWD (like you'd get in a RAV4) has an open centre diff and open diffs front and rear. This means that the power will flow to the wheel with the least resistance. That's what you see in videos on ice or rollers -- one wheel spinning. Audi, Subaru, BMW (x-drive) use computer controlled viscous couplings or clutches in the diffs to balance the power to all four wheels. What matters is quicly the computer can react and how smoothly can it move the power around. With all the software involved there's no point talking about the mechanical differences. The Grand Cherokee uses electronically controlled limited slip differencials all around. It's more about not getting stuck which is different than traction control. My 4WD truck has a transfer case (no center diff) and a LSD in the back so it drives all the wheels all the time. Great for off road but not meant for pavement.

My 02 Outback with a five speed uses a viscous center coupling that sends power mechanically away from the spinning tires to the front or rear. It also has a rear LSD differential. I think it is a fluid LSD system and not mechanical but it still works. That was standard on 02 Outbacks but if I remember correctly from shopping in 01 it only came on Outbacks with the winter package so not all Subaru's of that era had a LSD rear and I'm not sure about the new ones. Back then it was on the window stickers if it had them. The front differential is open. Anyway with that combo and four snows the car is a snowmobile in the winter. Almost unbelievable actually. I've plowed up and down roads drifted almost shut past many a stuck SUV and it is super fun to drive since you can kick the tail out at will.

I'm sure Audis are just as cool to drive in the snow and they have that little something extra that Subaru doesn't even pretend to have but Audis just aren't for me living in a town with no dealer and cost of ownership worries with an Audi if it happens to be less reliable than Busters machines. Also I've test drive the 12 Impreza with the paddle shifters on dry roads and it was a sweet ride but I'd still prefer the stick on snow I'm sure just because the mechanical system is so predictable. Still that CVT with paddles was a blast and it holds high gears at WOT so you can lug it over hills at low rpm if you so desire which is awesome. I can't even get myself motivated to drive a newer Outback. I just hate the SUV like high dashboard. Practical cars for some but just not enough 'station wagon' and to much SUV wannabee in there for me at this point.

/Ramble

Originally Posted by Big Steve

........

I don't speak spanish.

Originally Posted by uglymoney

not all Subaru's of that era had a LSD rear and I'm not sure about the new ones.

The following generation (03?-09) do too.

Honestly though. Who gives a fuck if they very latest ones do.

Originally Posted by wcf3

It is true that the question comes down to the type of differentials used (both center and side to side). It is not true though that the mechanism isn't important (e.g. viscous coupling vs.torsen).

For a discussion of the various types, see: http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...tion_4wd_2.htm

Great link. Best explanation I've seen thus far.

Originally Posted by uglymoney

My 02 Outback with a five speed uses a viscous center coupling that sends power mechanically away from the spinning tires to the front or rear.

So Subaru uses a different system (mechanical) on cars with MTs versus something else for the ATs? I think I remember reading something like that in another Subaru thread.

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

The following generation (03?-09) do too.

Honestly though. Who gives a fuck if they very latest ones do.

True that. I like the station wagon Impreza idea. They left a gap in the lineup for sure.

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

So Subaru uses a different system (mechanical) on cars with MTs versus something else for the ATs? I think I remember reading something like that in another Subaru thread.

Yep.

123456

Originally Posted by uglymoney

True that. I like the station wagon Impreza idea. They left a gap in the lineup for sure.

It seems to be that way. I happen to want a slightly smaller car, but my 97' Legacy is a good size and the new Outbacks are pretty huge in comparison.

Too lazy to read the thread as its all been said before and I'm sure someone will disagree, but from what I have seen driving a few outbacks, imprezas, a forester (it belonged to a girl i knew) and audi a4 and a6s, the audis have stiffer suspension and lower ground clearance so they will feel sportier, especially at high speeds and on dry pavement, they def has less body roll, however, the subies are better in snow, mud, dirt, rough roads, and don't really have a problem on high speeds with high g turns on dry pavement, they just don't feel quite as sporty doing it as the audis. Considering the audis cost a lot more to buy and maintain, suby wins for me. The only place suby falls short is there is more wind noise inside while driving and the fit and finish especially the interior isnt quite as good, but I am rough on such things anyways and feel out of place in a car thats too fancy.

The level of control even a mediocre driver can have powersliding the subarus through snow is amazing and unmatched by the audis.

Its all about tires though, you put shit tires on either one and they are going to suck.

i owned a 96 a4 red 2.8, a 04 wrx, and a 06 wrx wagon. and now have a wrangler stick with a selectable 4wd system- more like a traditional truck system

as for the awd systems, it seems like on the subie boards they all say how great the audi system is, and on the audi boards they say how great the subie system is, no joke, it's some sort of grass is greener phenomenon or something.

that said, when audis run, they're fucking amazing. i had a 5 spd, shifted smoothly, the 2.8 was a great little engine, the quattro was bossass, the car was well built and solid not tinny or rattly.... that said, they cost a fuck ton to fix, they usually require a specialist to fix em, and so it goes.... and it had a lot of problems to the point where it basically was a wash to take on a new car payment to get my jeep.

as for the wrxs, they were reliable, and fast as fuck and the awd system was also bossass, but it didn't have that solid feel to it, frameless doors, little sound proofing, cheap interior, which is what you get when you get a 230+ or with an sti 300 + hp car for under 30k that smokes cars almost twice its price. if they did break, or minor general maitenance was easy,i could do some of it, and if not it was cheap, and most, not all, but most mechanics can fix em up.

that said, now onto my jeep... it has the beauty of being literally idiot proof for fixing, it only has 20 k on it, but i've done the differentials myself, all the oil, some suspension adjustments, some intermediate steering shaft stuff, on the wrangler, everything is just there, and it seems like there are fewer moving parts, that said, while its a little less tinny and rattly then the wrx it doesn't want for a few rattles hear and there.... the 4wd system, with the selectable 4 hi and 4 lo has made me a convert, i use 4 hi at any snow driving speed i would ever need 0-60 ish, whose gunning around faster than that in snowpacked roads, i'm not sure, and if your ever in a jam, mud, deep snow, rocks, anything all 4 lo dominates that shit.

anyway, audi and subaru are both awesome awd systems, and i thought i'd never be a convert, but i truly believe in the selectable 4wd systems of trucks now and not sure i could go back.

maybe a 4 door taco crew cab stick next.

FWIW, with similar tires, my wife's '07 BMW X3 is as capable in mellow driving on snowy roads around Tahoe as was our 2000 Legacy GT wagon as far as grip goes.

I had an A6 Avant, replaced it with an RX300.

My closest skiing buddy had an outback wagon about the same gen.
I loved how the Audi drove but high center in deep snow was a reality.
Servicing the Audi was expensive and things needed to be replaced at far shorter intervals then my experience with other Japan brands.

I would give the Subi the edge for my own personal taste.

FWIW, the RX doesn't compare to either IMO, while it is AWD,
it doesn't handle tough conditions near as well as the Audi or the Subi.

Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

the 4wd system, with the selectable 4 hi and 4 lo has made me a convert, i use 4 hi at any snow driving speed i would ever need 0-60 ish, whose gunning around faster than that in snowpacked roads, i'm not sure, and if your ever in a jam, mud, deep snow, rocks, anything all 4 lo dominates that shit.

anyway, audi and subaru are both awesome awd systems, and i thought i'd never be a convert, but i truly believe in the selectable 4wd systems of trucks now and not sure i could go back.

Hmmm. You make a solid point here. 4Lo did actually save my rear once last year. Don't think I could've gotten out of that jam with any awd system. Maybe I should keep the stupid SUV for mountain adventures, or deep snow days, and get an awd car for everyday driving. If only they made a Subaru or Audi wagon with true 4wd with selectable 4hi/lo, and locking diffs. That would rock. Wish someone would make a modern version of the AMC Eagle previously mentioned in this thread. I've actually seen a ton of those up here.

That being said, when it comes to the AWD systems that goes in Subarus with a MT versus the AT, what's the real difference? I understand the torque split is different, but I mean what's the difference mechanically. Does Audi do the same thing? BMW?

^^^^locking diffs are great if your stuck. Try locking the diff, going downhill on icy road in 4 lo and see what happens. It will slide in really weird dirtections. AWD and 4WD have their advantages. I love the subie for long trips and up to resort. Wish I had more ground clearance and 4 lo after a 2-3 foot day. With a truck just cram it in 4 lo and pull out of snowpile.

I dug my subie out after such a day and wished I had a truck (still only took 5-10 minutes without shovel). On the 395 drive 6 hours home I was glad I had subie. Got 24 mpg with the box and turbo is great. I will probably get a truck later cause every family should have one for camping, thrashing, dog trips etc. My buddy is car engineer and says subie is the best based on technical (PM pray4snow with questions). Now that I have AWD hatchback (same cargo space as WRX wagon = 44 cu), I would like an xterra for 4wd, mud and fun, in a few years

Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

that said, now onto my jeep... it has the beauty of being literally idiot proof for fixing, it only has 20 k on it, but i've done the differentials myself, all the oil, some suspension adjustments, some intermediate steering shaft stuff, on the wrangler, everything is just there, and it seems like there are fewer moving parts, that said, while its a little less tinny and rattly then the wrx it doesn't want for a few rattles hear and there.... the 4wd system, with the selectable 4 hi and 4 lo has made me a convert, i use 4 hi at any snow driving speed i would ever need 0-60 ish, whose gunning around faster than that in snowpacked roads, i'm not sure, and if your ever in a jam, mud, deep snow, rocks, anything all 4 lo dominates that shit.

anyway, audi and subaru are both awesome awd systems, and i thought i'd never be a convert, but i truly believe in the selectable 4wd systems of trucks now and not sure i could go back.

maybe a 4 door taco crew cab stick next.

The OP said he wanted a better handling car for the summer instead of his 4x4 SUV but needed one that was great in snow.

How does a Wrangler fit this bill?

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

Hmmm. You make a solid point here. 4Lo did actually save my rear once last year. Don't think I could've gotten out of that jam with any awd system. Maybe I should keep the stupid SUV for mountain adventures, or deep snow days, and get an awd car for everyday driving. If only they made a Subaru or Audi wagon with true 4wd with selectable 4hi/lo, and locking diffs. That would rock. Wish someone would make a modern version of the AMC Eagle previously mentioned in this thread. I've actually seen a ton of those up here.

That being said, when it comes to the AWD systems that goes in Subarus with a MT versus the AT, what's the real difference? I understand the torque split is different, but I mean what's the difference mechanically. Does Audi do the same thing? BMW?

4Lo vs. 4Hi doesn't change the traction available (which wheels are actually given power). This is completely a function of the the differentials. Their behaviour doesn't change when one switches from 4Hi to 4Lo on production vehicles (both trucks and SUV's). There are probably some aftermarket systems that change the differential's behavior for specialized off road applications (e.g. rock crawling) when one switches to 4Lo, but I don't know of any specific examples off hand. All that 4Lo provides you with is more torque (basically lower gearing).

For a discussion of this see: http://www.rubicon-trail.com/4WD101/...e_4WD_awd.html

One of the problems with understanding Subaru AWD systems is that there have been so many different ones on various models over the years. A 'fairly' complete list of the different types and models can be found at:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...pt-48112.html?

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

skechers or prada backpack?

for context (question is difference between 'like' and 'love'):

"see, I like my sketchers, but I love my prada backpack..."

"but I love my sketchers..."

"that's because you don't have a prada backpack."

Phony Gasworks Park paintball scene notwithstanding, one of the greatest movies of all time...