Thread: Avy victim's parents seek changes

I wonder if the parents would be willing to waive the right to sue in exchange for improved signage? A number of years ago a young women fell to her death down the backside of Beaver traverse at Alpine Meadows going after the snow board she had dropped down the icy slope. Alpine put up big warning signs at the start of the traverse after the father raised issues. To the best of my knowledge there was no lawsuit. While I agree common sense should have prevailed here and Vail should not be faulted, perhaps putting up fancier signs would help the grieving parents a little bit. Maybe even name the run after the boy.
As far as I'm concerned the ski area is not liable if I die inbounds in an avalanche. It's not an exact science. If they try to make the risk zero all of us who love powder will be very unhappy.
Clearly, the technology which has allowed the masses to ski powder is way ahead of mountain sense. Europeans have a much longer history of relatively frequent avy deaths in the mountains than we do--maybe in time more Americans will have mountain sense.

this conversation has gotten incredibly off topic, what with icelanticskier babbling about mountain safety like trying to pass the Patriot Act, and Blurred trying to convince everyone that he's more core than bamboo just because he thinks everything that isn't hard slab with a 5' crown is a 'slough'.

Yeah it was a pretty small slide, but obviously SS and D2 (by definition because it killed somebody)

Clearly they had seen the closure, didn't believe patrol, and found a way to access the run anyways. I used to do the exact same thing growing up skiing in N.Idaho, the lake-chutes gates are closed? go down to Whiplash and traverse. A lot of kids that age do stuff like that, occasionally one of them is gonna get bit hard

Would common sense have helped? yes
Do 13 year olds have common sense? no
Is that Vail's ethical or legal responsibility? no

yeah you could have a no uphill hiking sign or such, but you usually only see those in areas where uphill hiking is probable/sometimes allowed. In any case, such a sign would be Vail's initiative and not required, because the logic is self-evident and hiking into a closed area from an open one is an explicit violation of the skier responsibility act.

i do not like Vail Corp, but I don't demand the impossible from them

...And the family of the Vail victim is now suing: http://www.aspentimes.com/ARTICLE/20...0809970/-1/RSS

Given a wide time elapsing between the Jan. 22nd incident and the Aug. 2nd filing date, I'm inclined to side with the family's motive.

“We've wanted from the beginning to discuss this in terms of public safety in the future. We've tried that without litigation."

Colorado law caps wrongful death awards at $250,000 for children. Ingalls and Dr. Stephen Conlin are local veterinarians.

“The object is to keep other parents from having to go through this.”




Should be interesting if this does go all the way to a jury verdict and what changes at resorts might stem from this.

"We have a lottery ticket, and we've decided to cash it in".

SWEET! Close some more shit, don't open anything when it snows, bomb everything to the ground.

Keep it safe!!!!!

Originally Posted by Blurred

"We have a lottery ticket, and we've decided to cash it in".

SWEET! Close some more shit, don't open anything when it snows, bomb everything to the ground.

Keep it safe!!!!!

I dunno, this response seems a little "one-note" vs. your usual thoughtful analysis???

I'm with PappaG. Their actions, and knowing people who know them, lead me to believe that they truly think Vail fucked up and want things to change (which isn't to say I think they're right- I really don't know). I don't think they're after the $.

Originally Posted by jfost

I dunno, this response seems a little "one-note" vs. your usual thoughtful analysis???

I'm just over this litigious country.

It really goes against evolution. If it didn't effect me, I wouldn't care....but it does. Directly, and I lose the freedom to be happy because of it.

It should be a crime.

So if I'm getting this right, LPC run was safe to ski (out of runout zone?) but UPC was not safe b/c of exposure, stability, etc. Going past a closed gate then engaging in any sort of uphill movement from an adjacent/lower open gate is clearly negligent behavior. The nature of ski areas with the acreage and vertical of Vail is such that skier safety is contingent upon a degree of common sense attributable to a reasonable person. It's a balancing act.

And for chrissake, mountains are not safe. They are steep, rocky, have completely random rock and icefall events, treefall, landslides, avalanche cycles that establish new runout boundaries (see Baker - Shuksan Arm slide I think last year that hit in bounds), etc. What's the foreward of the Chuting Gallery again? Something like.. "great uncle gave me this book with a note emphasizing danger in the backcountry. Well, he quit skiing and moved to the city, where he was killed by a car."

Survivorship bias is all Rog's skiing video taught me. The logic of always blaming the human element when a dangerous event occurs is below the intellectual level of your average level 1 Avy student.

I was thinking about this a few years ago, what really pisses me off about the litigation,
Back in the day Ski patrol would mark obstacles’ on a run as a courtesy to skiers. So you would not come over a bump and whack into a protruding rock or stump.
No they will not mark ANY Obstacle because if they mark one and miss one they open themselves to litigation.

HOW FUCKED UP IS THAT!

Originally Posted by MTT

I was thinking about this a few years ago, what really pisses me off about the litigation,
Back in the day Ski patrol would mark obstacles’ on a run as a courtesy to skiers. So you would not come over a bump and whack into a protruding rock or stump.
No they will not mark ANY Obstacle because if they mark one and miss one they open themselves to litigation.

HOW FUCKED UP IS THAT!

It's extremely fucked up, and it impacts us all.


Here's the best analogy I could think of today.

You have a old county dirt road that you really like to drive on. You've been driving this dirt road your entire life.
You know the road is dangerous and demands respect so you drive accordingly.

Then, some guy who has never driven the road before rolls his car and dies on it. He does it on a corner that you always knew was dangerous, but it is what it is.
You later learn that the dirt road had been closed by the county before this incident because the county deemed it unsafe due to a recent road washout.
You also learn that the person who died not only knew the road was closed, but went well out of their way to drive around the closed signs.

To top it all off, the family of the deceased decides to sue the county. Even though the county closed the road for safety concerns, the victim knew it and went well out of his way to disobey the closure.

As a result, none of us can drive the dirt road again without risking a huge fine and/or jail.

Fucking awesome.

Some people have found ways besides litigation to make thing better

http://www.pettigrewfoundation.com/

Originally Posted by Blurred

It's extremely fucked up, and it impacts us all.


Here's the best analogy I could think of today.

You have a old county dirt road that you really like to drive on. You've been driving this dirt road your entire life.
You know the road is dangerous and demands respect so you drive accordingly.

Then, some guy who has never driven the road before rolls his car and dies on it. He does it on a corner that you always knew was dangerous, but it is what it is.
You later learn that the dirt road had been closed by the county before this incident because the county deemed it unsafe due to a recent road washout.
You also learn that the person who died not only knew the road was closed, but went well out of their way to drive around the closed signs.

To top it all off, the family of the deceased decides to sue the county. Even though the county closed the road for safety concerns, the victim knew it and went well out of his way to disobey the closure.

As a result, none of us can drive the dirt road again without risking a huge fine and/or jail.

Fucking awesome.

A very good analogy. I'm sorry this happened. I hope it doesn't ruin things. The mountains are not safe.

Originally Posted by KarlStall

Survivorship bias is all Rog's skiing video taught me. The logic of always blaming the human element when a dangerous event occurs is below the intellectual level of your average level 1 Avy student.

what video are you referring to?

mountains are safe. it's we who may not be safe in them.

rog

This country has become the country of too many lawyers. Look at Congress. They have their place but this country is going down the tubes.

snoqpass~That is a most proactive approach.

This case is rather depressing as no one wins. The parents lost their son and everyone in CO might see greater restrictions and limited access to this kind of terrain in the future.

You cant blame physics for being negligent. You cannot tell the snow to act according to your wishes. You can't put a new sign, a new ropeline, or change current policies and expect nature to consider these new options. And while science has made leaps and bounds in the quest to understand the complex nature of the world we live in, we are all still infants in our ability to put it to use so that it benefits every single person, scenario or situation.

And saying that your "avy savy" is akin to being literate. You might be able to read words, visualize a scene in your mind, but everyone interprets the theme in a different way.

well said^^^^^^^^^^^^^

end of tr.

rog

Originally Posted by icelanticskier

what video are you referring to?

mountains are safe. it's we who may not be safe in them.

rog

tsunamis are safe. it's we who may not be safe in them.

Originally Posted by covert

bitch, please. that's a harlem nights reference, not a provocation earth is safe. it's we who may not be safe on earth.

is that a movie? never saw it. like the title tho

fuckigottagettothebeachnowbye

rog

This is fucked. I get that the parents want to prevent this kind of thing from happening again, but they seem to be glossing over the fact that their kid upclimbed into a closed area through an open gate.

Seems like if they really wanted to do something to prevent similar deaths they might encourage other parents to impart some common sense to their kids rather than force resorts to close more areas and post more signs for their kids to ignore.

Vail should counter-sue for shit parenting skills. I see your frivolous lawsuit and raise you a more frivolous lawsuit.

Expecting rational behavior from a parent who is trying to make reason out of the loss of a child is not rational.
Looks like the attorneys are not on a contingency as the case is capped at $250 K. So, this family may spend six figures in legal fees to recover less.
As an operator, what can Vail do?
They closed the face and some kids poached it. I don’t think a different sign would have prevented a bunch of kids from doing what kids do. When I was that age we all joked about how the ropes and signs were out to keep fresh tracks for us.
Hell, if Vail had to rope off every section that is a fifty yard steep pitch from uphill traffic, they would need to employ the town of eagle to move ropes and wouldn’t be open until a week after every storm.
I would be interested to see what the mother and father would like to be done differently?

Originally Posted by Canada1

I would be interested to see what the mother and father would like to be done differently?

They just want a sign in place telling people not to hike uphill from there, from what I understand. Of course, as has already been mentioned, if they do that, then they have to do it everywhere else too or they'll eventually face another lawsuit using the sign as ammunition.

Clearly the solution is to fit everyone on the mountain with shock collars so that they can be remotely tasered if they enter closed terrain.

Originally Posted by coreshot-tourettes

Clearly the solution is to fit everyone on the mountain with shock collars so that they can be remotely tasered if they enter closed terrain.

But only if I am the guy that gets to push the button to make them activate. RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!!

Originally Posted by coreshot-tourettes

Clearly the solution is to fit everyone on the mountain with shock collars so that they can be remotely tasered if they enter closed terrain.

We have a hard enough time getting folks to ware transceivers, how the hell will you get them to ware the collars????