Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 121
  1. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Amherst, Mass.
    Posts
    3,308
    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Jonathan. You're wrong. Sorry.
    I was quoting (and criticizing, not supporting) an excerpt from their FAQ.
    For those stuck in the Northeast, check out the NE Rando Race Series and my avalanche course. (For other avalanche course providers anywhere, feel free to use any of my "homework" assignments for your own courses too.)

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    they tell me it's paradise
    Posts
    21,678
    These have been around for decades and yet the apocalypse hasn't come.

    Chalk it up to TGR nano-dick swinging.
    Lord King of the Beater-Kooks

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    17,514
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    PNW... I don't understand either of your posts. Drink your coffee, then reread the thread.
    You have to teach a new user to turn this POS out of transmit mode in order for them not to interfere with a search being conducted by a regular beacon? Just as you'd have to teach a new user of a regular beacon to switch out transmit mode.

    The learning curve for both devices (up to that point of basic functionality for one and complete expertise with the other) is exactly the same.

    And Jonathan was wrong the wearer of this new device is being selfish... as well as being stoopid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Amherst, Mass.
    Posts
    3,308
    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    And Jonathan was wrong the wearer of this new device is being selfish... as well as being stoopid.
    As if my original post wasn't obvious enough:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan S. View Post
    I was quoting (and criticizing, not supporting) an excerpt from their FAQ.
    For those stuck in the Northeast, check out the NE Rando Race Series and my avalanche course. (For other avalanche course providers anywhere, feel free to use any of my "homework" assignments for your own courses too.)

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    17,514
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan S. View Post
    I was quoting (and criticizing, not supporting) an excerpt from their FAQ.
    I thought this your own question... not a quote from them.

    My apologies.

    Clearly we agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Chamonix
    Posts
    676
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    These have been around for decades and yet the apocalypse hasn't come.
    True, but they're not widely known about, and therefore not widely used. Look at how this product is being marketed. Then think how many there could potentially be on the hill. That's the worry.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Amherst, Mass.
    Posts
    3,308
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    These have been around for decades and yet the apocalypse hasn't come.

    Chalk it up to TGR nano-dick swinging.
    True, this won’t bring on an (the?) apocalypse.
    But the Ortovox D2 and whatever was the other competing model, were about half the price of beacons, and were marketed for dogs (bad) and tents/gear on remote mountaineering trips (justifiable ... I think?)
    This new device is about a quarter the price of a typical price-point beacon, and moreover that price point has dropped in real/inflation-adjusted terms in recent years. At a full retail price of $75 (AUD and USD seem to be about par), if this is exported in sufficiently large quantities, the discount price will get down to that of a impulse purchase. And the marketing is encouraging skiers who are entirely ignorant of any rescue protocols to remain so. Plus nowhere does the website state that if you’re a bystander to a burial, you’d better turn off your Snow-be immediately. (Instead, the only advice is to “move away from an incident to a place of safety” but you’d better get out of range of any searchers, plus chances are that the purchaser of this thing won’t even be able to recognize “a place of safety.”)
    For those stuck in the Northeast, check out the NE Rando Race Series and my avalanche course. (For other avalanche course providers anywhere, feel free to use any of my "homework" assignments for your own courses too.)

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    13,048
    Arguably, the D2 was marketed to hunters to put on hunting dogs that might become trapped in an underground burrow. It wasn't marketed for dogs in the snow. I think in Germany the beacon was sold as the jagerhundsendenn or something like that (Hunting Dog Transmitter).

    This company, Snow Beacon, is directly marketing to joe tourist with the message of, "Don't you worry about rescuing other people! Let other people worry about rescuing you!" Snow Beacon is going to trade shows and encouraging others to promote their/sell product with the same message.

    Snow Beacon doesn't have to close up shop to be ethical. They can still finish developing and sell their probes, clothes, and MOLE transceiver. They could adapt the Snow-Be into an affordable practice beacon park product.

    Ethically, they do need change their message and stop selling the Snow-Be to consumers the way they are doing it now.
    Last edited by Summit; 05-22-2012 at 12:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Amherst, Mass.
    Posts
    3,308
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Arguably, the D2 was marketed to hunters to put on hunting dogs that might become trapped in an underground burrow. It wasn't marketed for dogs in the snow. I think in Germany the beacon was sold as the jagerhundsendenn or something like that (Hunting Dog Transmitter).
    Ah hah, so that's why it had that hunter green color! Makes much more sense now.
    For those stuck in the Northeast, check out the NE Rando Race Series and my avalanche course. (For other avalanche course providers anywhere, feel free to use any of my "homework" assignments for your own courses too.)

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Sandy by the front
    Posts
    784
    Quote Originally Posted by josef View Post
    I was thinking this too. Or maybe a dog or something. But chasing them down to turn it off in a rescue could be a time consuming nightmare. I dont think we need to worry about too many shops picking these up.
    Please don't put a beacon on your dog in the BC. Suppose the dog plus YOU gets buried, how lucky do you feel? there is a 50 - 50 chance we dig you out and not the dog? I think the point is that most BC skiers, even novices spend some time learning about the BC, how to put their shovel together, use of a probe and some basic knowledge of beacon use. Make this an impulse purchase as someone said and now we have a bunch of gapers wearing them in bounds with no idea they need to turn them off. Rescues are a complete cluster fuck of confusion, adrenaline and not a lot of organization. This just does not sound like a good idea to me.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    they tell me it's paradise
    Posts
    21,678
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan S. View Post
    True, this won’t bring on an (the?) apocalypse.
    But the Ortovox D2 and whatever was the other competing model, were about half the price of beacons, and were marketed for dogs (bad) and tents/gear on remote mountaineering trips (justifiable ... I think?)
    This new device is about a quarter the price of a typical price-point beacon, and moreover that price point has dropped in real/inflation-adjusted terms in recent years. At a full retail price of $75 (AUD and USD seem to be about par), if this is exported in sufficiently large quantities, the discount price will get down to that of a impulse purchase. And the marketing is encouraging skiers who are entirely ignorant of any rescue protocols to remain so. Plus nowhere does the website state that if you’re a bystander to a burial, you’d better turn off your Snow-be immediately. (Instead, the only advice is to “move away from an incident to a place of safety” but you’d better get out of range of any searchers, plus chances are that the purchaser of this thing won’t even be able to recognize “a place of safety.”)
    No Jonathan, transmit only beacons were marketed and sold for snow skiing a decade + ago.
    Lord King of the Beater-Kooks

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    3,031
    I could see a transmit-only beacon working for clients on guided heli skiing, no? They are not responsible for rescues nor are they trained for such.

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Amherst, Mass.
    Posts
    3,308
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    No Jonathan, transmit only beacons were marketed and sold for snow skiing a decade + ago.
    So the Snow-Joker, Powder-Beep, Arva Life Bip, and Barryvox S2 were mainly marketed toward skiers too cheap to buy and/or incompetent to use a real beacon? (Googling around, some of the text does reference the appeal to off-piste resort skiers.)
    For those stuck in the Northeast, check out the NE Rando Race Series and my avalanche course. (For other avalanche course providers anywhere, feel free to use any of my "homework" assignments for your own courses too.)

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Alpental
    Posts
    3,994
    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    I could see a transmit-only beacon working for clients on guided heli skiing, no? They are not responsible for rescues nor are they trained for such.
    Incorrect.

    It's been a few years since my last trip in a heli, but everyone of them opened with a beacon initiation session and practice search. Only slightly annoying that most required you to use their beacon and disallowed using your own.
    Move upside and let the man go through...

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    3,031
    Quote Originally Posted by Mofro261 View Post
    Incorrect.

    It's been a few years since my last trip in a heli, but everyone of them opened with a beacon initiation session and practice search. Only slightly annoying that most required you to use their beacon and disallowed using your own.
    Thanks for clarifying. I've never gone heli skiing but assumed clients were not expected to assist with searches. I'm glad to hear I'm off on this one.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    13,048
    There are cases of clients saving guides and of clients saving clients.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Amherst, Mass.
    Posts
    3,308
    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    Thanks for clarifying. I've never gone heli skiing but assumed clients were not expected to assist with searches. I'm glad to hear I'm off on this one.
    The first time I ever "used" a beacon was for a day of heli skiing back in 1992 in New Zealand.
    But I sure hope protocols have changed since then, as we were all in strictly victim-only mode: no probe, no shovel, no idea how to switch over to Search, or even Off IIRC. (I do remember though walking by a guide one-by-one so that he could confirm that each of us was transmitting -- I found the entire exercise to be kind of neat-o, but knowing absolutely nothing about avalanches, I was completely oblivious to how inadequately prepared we all were.)

    I'm pretty sure our group -- of maybe 7 or so? -- had only one guide, with no tail guide.

    Almost 20 years later, the website states:
    "In the field all our guests are equipped with Avalanche transcievers [sic] and recieve a comprehensive safety briefing in their use before skiing and riding commences."
    That sure sounds like guests have no idea how to conduct a beacon search, and are not equipped with probes and shovels.
    For those stuck in the Northeast, check out the NE Rando Race Series and my avalanche course. (For other avalanche course providers anywhere, feel free to use any of my "homework" assignments for your own courses too.)

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Alpental
    Posts
    3,994
    ^^^^
    Good thing your sample size of one Heli company in NZ holds true for every outfit.
    Move upside and let the man go through...

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Amherst, Mass.
    Posts
    3,308
    Quote Originally Posted by Mofro261 View Post
    ^^^^
    Good thing your sample size of one Heli company in NZ holds true for every outfit.
    By no means did I intend to imply that this is typical of heli operations -- I was just relating one personal example, way back from 1992, which unfortunately seems to still be true for that particular operation.
    I have absolutely no idea what the typical setup is for heli ops, whether in NZ or elsewhere.
    I am surprised though that any heli op would be charging that much yet not investing in a fleet of basic 20-liter-ish packs, each equipped with probe & shovel. (Given that they could be sold at the end of each season for about the fleet purchase rate, the net financial cost would be zero.)

    I did though check out a few BC snowcat ops websites last year out of curiosity to see whether shovel-less skiers were allowed. (This was after that video initially appeared of the Ontario skier who went into the tree well, with only one shovel available - the very small Voile XLM -- to help dig him out.) Seemed like the typical setup was to stock a few packs (with probes and shovels) for guests, then if nobody on the tour was already equipped, a couple guests in the group would have to carry a probe + shovel pack.
    For those stuck in the Northeast, check out the NE Rando Race Series and my avalanche course. (For other avalanche course providers anywhere, feel free to use any of my "homework" assignments for your own courses too.)

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Alpental
    Posts
    3,994
    This is thread drift, since in no situation I can come up with does a transmit only beacon make sense.

    But yeah, some of my early trips (~94-95 ish) the guide had a full kit and the clients took turns being tail gunner with a second probe/shovel pack. But all of my experiences in Helis (4 different outfits) we had to show basic knowledge of how to search with a beacon and locate a buried one prior to flying.
    Move upside and let the man go through...

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    13,048
    Let's not go back in time 20 years in professionalism, technology, and safety. I like my Pulse, my DPS Skis, and my multi-core multi-gig-RAM intranets machine.

    Any guide worth their salt makes sure their clients have the tools and at least a crude knowledge. Not giving them rescue tools removes the possibility of their helping, and with it, any shred of responsibility and risk realization that might be rattling around in their customer brains. That is just my opinion, but that mindset has led to clients saving clients and saving guides.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    866
    Read the comments by 'AndyT' in this thread: http://forums.ski.com.au/forums/ubbt...04#Post1653304

    Wow.

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Amherst, Mass.
    Posts
    3,308
    Quote Originally Posted by CarveMan View Post
    Read the comments by 'AndyT' in this thread: http://forums.ski.com.au/forums/ubbt...04#Post1653304

    Wow.
    I think the only good to come out of this is that I learned a new word today:

    http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/ente...Spruiking.aspx

    Spruiking and touting
    As part of the Street Activity Policy 2011, City of Melbourne regulates ‘spruiking’ conducted in the public place by retail businesses and their employees.

    All businesses within the City of Melbourne that employ staff to spruik outside their premises must either hold a permit or only employ spruikers who have a permit. Amplified spruiking is banned unless exceptional circumstances apply and it has been approved.

    What is spruiking?
    Spruiking is using a human voice to generally promote goods or services to passing pedestrians on a street or in a public place. This is different to touting, which involves standing in front of a business and enticing or propositioning individuals to enter the premises and purchase goods. Touting is not permitted under the Activities Local Law 2009 anywhere within the City of Melbourne municipality.
    For those stuck in the Northeast, check out the NE Rando Race Series and my avalanche course. (For other avalanche course providers anywhere, feel free to use any of my "homework" assignments for your own courses too.)

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    866
    Quote Originally Posted by Mofro261 View Post
    This is thread drift, since in no situation I can come up with does a transmit only beacon make sense.

    But yeah, some of my early trips (~94-95 ish) the guide had a full kit and the clients took turns being tail gunner with a second probe/shovel pack. But all of my experiences in Helis (4 different outfits) we had to show basic knowledge of how to search with a beacon and locate a buried one prior to flying.
    When I went heliskiing in New Zealand we had a group of 4, all with full kit and the guide remarked that she felt better knowing we all had shovels & probes. This operation typically has a tail gunner shovel/probe pack that is shared through the day.

    We also had to do a mock search prior to day 1 - a basic transceiver search and also assembling our probes and shovels.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    they tell me it's paradise
    Posts
    21,678
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Let's not go back in time 20 years in professionalism, technology, and safety. I like my Pulse, my DPS Skis, and my multi-core multi-gig-RAM intranets machine.
    Damn straight! Everyone needs the latest greatest Lesbo9000 to be a true core summit county skier! A1 Summit!


    Mofro - because not everyone is a seattle yuppie or a tgr yuppie with $$$$ to burn


    I'd much rather full function beacons drop in price, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards really. Oh well. Now for the iVibe innabled beacon
    Lord King of the Beater-Kooks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •