Thread: Recs for Super Crazy Light Freestanding Sort-Of Two-Person Tent?

I'm using a Made in America, 1980, Eureka 12' X 12" cabin with the optional 6' X 12' attached dining fly. 7' tall at the center. Add a queen sized Coleman air mattress and all is good for a 1- 2 week stay. Weighs about 50 lbs.

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

bullshit, that's all.

It appears that you have an axe to grind with all of those who have problems with the Firstlight's waterproofing. You can say it's bullshit - that I'm not venting the tent correctly or that I'm "overplaying the importance of waterproofing" (you do realize those are opposite problems, right?), but I'm not a novice backpacker - though I don't claim to be as experienced as some. Frankly, I encountered this problem WAY before I joined TGR, and I would certainly not join the masses if I felt otherwise. (In fact, my dad bought me the tent and was with me on the trip we had the problem. He agreed that it had nothing to do with condensation or adequate venting - he spent most of his life backpacking with various shelters.) None of this is to say that the Firstlight isn't a fine tent; it just has very real limitations. But if you're cool using it in a thunderstorm, by all means.

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

XavierD - stuff your bivy sack shaped cock in your mouth fucktard. bivy sacks are for retards and interwebz hardmen

Fuck, now I'm agreeing with you.

Okay, I'm done with this thread until Big Steve decides to come in and take us all to school again. Thanks for sharing your expertise mang.

Batch or lot irregularity maybe?

In a driving rain, tiny droplets can drive through Epic fabric (BD Firstlight, Lighthouse) canopies, resulting in a very fine mist falling inside the tent. I've personally experienced it. (Fine misting can also occur in a driving rain in a silnylon single wall tent, but less often and to a lesser extent than an Epic canopy tent; the pressure threshold of silnylon seems to be quite a bit higher than with Epic.) With Epic, at most it's a fine mist, not anything that can fairly be called "rain."

Condensation is a completely different issue. Epic tents get pretty soggy inside during a Cascade crest pea soup 100% humidity system, but that can be controlled with a Shamwow and/or sponges. Epic tents work fine for most summer alpine conditions, i.e., generally good conditions with the occasional mountain storm. IME, no amount of venting will do much to help condensation in the former set of conditions (i.e., 100% humidity) with Epic fabric. Nonetheless, I've sat out a couple of prolonged storms in my bud's Lighthouse without too much discomfort. All single wall tents have limitations. BD Epic tents are fine summer mountaineering tents, so long as you ready to deal with their inherent limitations.

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

Batch or lot irregularity maybe?

Wouldnt be the first time.. At some point we had 3 Wild country tents. one was ok, one lacked the dwr/fire retardant totally (no beading of water etc..) and one was so badly soaked in chemicals that the tent had to be returned. It utterly reeked and was impossible to stay in for longer periods. So yep, I could imagine that things can go awry..

Originally Posted by Big Steve

In a driving rain, tiny droplets can drive through Epic fabric (BD Firstlight, Lighthouse) canopies, resulting in a very fine mist falling inside the tent. I've personally experienced it.

I have a MHW EV2 and as awesome tent as it is, it has the same/similar prob. In thunderstorm type of rain the water just starts to come through at some point. Normally it is something like a teacup/24h of pouring rain. Contacted the MHW about it and they said it is the downside of the tent, it is designed for sub zero temps and its primal mission have never been super wet conditions. They suggested that I use seam sealant on the crucial upper dome seams, or all the seams if that would be a issue.
Did it and the tent is much better in that behalf.

I've never heard of a bad batch of Epic. Not sure how that could happen. Epic has no coating, no treatment. The cool thing about Epic is that the encapsulated fibers are super slippery, thus DWR treatment is not necessary.

Epic's manufacturer describes the fabric as "water resistant." Anybody who has tried a rainy bivi in an Epic bivi bag or Epic shelled sleeping bag already knows that Epic is water resistant, not waterproof. IME, Epic works great in cold snow, hence the the BD Winter Bivi is made of Epic.

Yeah, thanks for mentioning the stuff on Epic, Big Steve. After I went to bed last night, I was thinking I ought to make the same argument. I have a FF down coat with Epic - works great in everything up to a lighter rain, but at some point it will wet through. The fabric simply isn't waterproof, nor was it designed to be. Note that my Integral Designs MK1 was made of eVent and doesn't have the same issue, despite being extremely similar in design.

I don't think the EV2 is made of Epic - it has its own DWR. Not saying you don't have the same issue, but I don't think it's inherent to the fabric.

ETA: Thanks for the info on the condensation issues with Epic, Big Steve. Can't say I've ever experienced it to that degree personally, but it's definitely a good thing to know.

Adding to this thread: All three of my (single) sleeping bags have eVent shells. That adds a few oz over nano or ultralight ripstop, but the eVent shell makes them practical inside single wall tents or under tarps even in stormy weather, and all three work fine for non-rainy bivis without the need for a bivi sack.

To the guy recommending bivis over tents for summer: For a party of two, a lightweight tent is lighter than two bivi sacks. Hell, some lightweight solo tents are lighter than a bivi sack.

I use a Tarptent Rainbow for a 3 season ultralight freestander. Good price and good tent.

Originally Posted by AKPogue

No experience with these guys just thought I would post it.

http://zpacks.com/

Wanted to say thanks for that link. Looks like they make some pretty sweet stuff. Little pricy, but definitely light.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

In a driving rain, tiny droplets can drive through Epic fabric (BD Firstlight, Lighthouse) canopies, resulting in a very fine mist falling inside the tent. I've personally experienced it. (Fine misting can also occur in a driving rain in a silnylon single wall tent, but less often and to a lesser extent than an Epic canopy tent; the pressure threshold of silnylon seems to be quite a bit higher than with Epic.) With Epic, at most it's a fine mist, not anything that can fairly be called "rain."
s.

I noticed the same misting with my MSR hubba hubba during a heavy rainstorm in the pyrennes but as soon as the pounding slacked off no more mist, the Hubba HUbba fly is "40D ripstop nylon 1500mm DurashieldTM polyurethane & silicone"

I am thinking at 4.5lbs the hubba hubba is too heavy for the OP, it is a really nice tent to use, I tried to buy a new stuff sack because the old one had holes from being bungied to a bike touring rack, MSR had the factory make me another bag for free ... great service

you guys rock!

This is the angriest backpacking tent thread I've ever read. I bet it always gets heated like this on the backpackers forums...

Originally Posted by Big Steve

I've never heard of a bad batch of Epic.

Zing. Failed to ad one and one here..

Damn Hugh are you that much of an asshole in person? You should get a new hobby. 11,000 posts, and in most you're probably a know-it-all prick. Sad.

I've spent a good chunk of my life in tents (intense?) and I know what condensation is, thanks. And how to vent.

In decent moderate to heavy rain you do get the mist inside the firstlight (technically mine was a lighthouse). In this particular instance we got 3" of rain on the mountain! And it really did get wet as fuck inside the tent - pouring.

Just relating a firsthand problem I've had w those tents in really wet conditions. For light rain, wind and snow they're great.

Relax people.

I had a Stevenson on winter hi elevation trips, and I felt that the condensation is pretty bad.
I have a BD mid (floorless tent) and I thought was ideal, but:

Let's say you save 4 lbs compared to a 6 pound tent, divided by two people= 2 lbs savings each.

If you weigh 200 lbs this is a 1 % saving. On a 6 hour day, 6x500 calories per hour is 3,000 calories per day, so 1% is 30 calories saved, more likely 50 calories because if this is the marginal weight increase, each extra percent weight will require a larger than 1% energy expenditure.

Now, the interesting part. It takes at least another 20 minutes more to set-up a Mid than a regular tent (I compare it to the Hillebrand, which is NOT a frestanding tent. THis of course is on snow.

So 20 minutes or a third of an hour, is probably 130 calories expended.

Anyway this is my theory, welcome comments.

And again, it applies only to winter on snow camping.

Originally Posted by ncognico

...Relax people.

[fanning flames inside a tent]

no YOU relax you jackass!!!

[/flames]

Originally Posted by rod9301

...
Anyway this is my theory, welcome comments.

And again, it applies only to winter on snow camping.

I like where you are going with this re: overall energy expenditure - you should factor in the energy costs of being uncomfortable and cold/wet all night too, that would make or break a trip for me. How do you divide the weight between 2 people though, are you assuming that you would share carrying of the tent vs other supplies so the pack weight is roughly equal? I try and have my friends carry the heavy stuff in exchange for getting to spend time with me. It's a win-win.

Originally Posted by jfost

I like where you are going with this re: overall energy expenditure - you should factor in the energy costs of being uncomfortable and cold/wet all night too, that would make or break a trip for me. How do you divide the weight between 2 people though, are you assuming that you would share carrying of the tent vs other supplies so the pack weight is roughly equal?

Exactly - and I think that's part of what he's saying. Saving 4 pounds seems like a bunch, but how much difference does it really make? You could end up with less energy and move slower. I think Big Steve's idea about factoring total pack weight is really important to consider as well. Though I'll be honest and say I think the math is flawed. You can't compare weight you carry on your back to body weight - even if you're carrying fat, it's not the same as carrying it externally.

The idea reminds me of reading Mark Twight's account of a climb where (IIRC) he decided he would hyperhydrate the night before, only bring 2 L of water per person, and forgo the stove. Climbed for 30+ hours in a single-push effort, and got so dehydrated that it took him over a week for his resting heartrate to return to normal. His point in telling the story was that you can sometimes move faster by carrying more weight (in this case, he said he should have brought the stove).

The nerd in me says that equipment choice is really just a difficult optimization problem where you're trying to minimize overall time (or energy)...

I try and have my friends carry the heavy stuff in exchange for getting to spend time with me.

Pretty sure this only works if you're a girl.

My BD Lighthouse (1st gen Epic) leaked badly in a thunderstorm at the base of the Mountaineer's route on Whitney. Granted the ranger said the thunder storm was the worst they had in 20 years, but that is when you need a tent. I sold the BD and got a Big Agnes Fly Creek. I will report on the Fly Creek after I use it.

Originally Posted by auvgeek

...The nerd in me says that equipment choice is really just a difficult optimization problem where you're trying to minimize overall time (or energy)...

well said, so important to set your end goal and not get lost in the minutae...

Pretty sure this only works if you're a girl.

or if the girls are doing the carrying

I picked up the big agnes and MH and set them both up in the basement. Between the two, I liked the MH better. The roofline and foot hoop on the MH gave it better space, despite the smaller footprint. With tent, fly, poles, and stuff sack the big anges was ever so slightly lighter from the balance test. Sorry, didn't get them on a scale. I think you could slink out of either without letting in much rain, but moving gear in and out in a driving rain or leaving the fly door open for ventilation is going to let water in. I think this is a given in this class of tent.

In the end I wasn't in love with either tent. The pole clips on the MH grab the poles too tight, and took two hands to clip and unclip. That and the pole hubs (which I hate on any tent) made set-up/take-down sort of clunky. Once up, it was sturdy for an UL single ridgepole design tent, unlike the rickety Big A. The fly creek may have been more solid if it were staked out firm, but the velcro carpet stakes I was using didn't allow for it. Overall the fly creek had a cheap feel. In some ways I expect that with UL fabrics, but there was a noticeable difference overall compared to the MH (which was more expensive). I returned both and continue to search.

I really like the look of the Easton offerings. I want to get inside the kilo 2 and see how cramped it is. From internet pics and video, the walls and foot area look very low angle. I want double duty, solo+dog backpacking, and 2-person day and a half peak bagging trips. So I don't mind tight quarters when doubled up for the few hours of shitty sleep I'll get, but if at 6'3" I have to sleep at an angle, that's a deal breaker. The kilo 3p also looks very nice, if the advertised weights are close.

i haven't read the thread and i'm sure this isn't what you're looking for but i have one and love it, but i have a bad back and sleeping on the ground kills me.

http://hennessyhammock.com/

Originally Posted by ncognico

Damn Hugh are you that much of an asshole in person? You should get a new hobby. 11,000 posts, and in most you're probably a know-it-all prick. Sad.

I know....how to vent.

Relax people.

So it appears.

Originally Posted by spook

i haven't read the thread and i'm sure this isn't what you're looking for but i have one and love it, but i have a bad back and sleeping on the ground kills me.

http://hennessyhammock.com/

Beat me to it. In the spirit of considering total pack weight, with the hammock, I can get by with an 8oz closed cell foam pad. Add 1.2lb sleeping bag and http://hennessyhammock.com/catalog/s..._asym_classic/

You get a total sleep system weight of just over 3lbs. I am a stomach and side sleeper in a bed, but the hammock is so comfortable I have no complaints about sleeping on my back. Spring for the western mountaineering 32 degree bag (1lb exactly) and you can be at 3lbs 1oz.

The best thing though, no need to go to a tent platform in our oh so tight EC woods. Camp anywhere there are trees more than 6" in diameter.

Originally Posted by neufox47

Beat me to it. In the spirit of considering total pack weight, with the hammock, I can get by with an 8oz closed cell foam pad. Add 1.2lb sleeping bag and http://hennessyhammock.com/catalog/s..._asym_classic/

You get a total sleep system weight of just over 3lbs. I am a stomach and side sleeper in a bed, but the hammock is so comfortable I have no complaints about sleeping on my back. Spring for the western mountaineering 32 degree bag (1lb exactly) and you can be at 3lbs 1oz.

The best thing though, no need to go to a tent platform in our oh so tight EC woods. Camp anywhere there are trees more than 6" in diameter.

Hennessey's are an east coasters dream, especially App trail thru hikers. However..ever try waiting out a storm in one? Not super fun at all and pretty lonely. Just saying. I had a hennessey sleep system and found it not much lighter than my current setup (lighthouse), a pain to get into my sleeping bag in, and just in general not much of a "better" system than my traditional tent setup. Also with the 2 person tent, being solo most times gives me plenty of room to kick back and wait out a storm if necessary and possibly have a friend in to play cards of chat instead of being alone.