Thread: Tipping Point

I know this will be less popular because it has a reduced ability to call each other assholes but for fuck sakes we have got to admit to ourselves that we are at the tipping point here.

Lets see, the Zetas got 49 in Cadereyta, 35 in Boca Del Rio, 26 in Jalisco, 23 in Nuevo Lardo (nine of which were hung from a bridge) that's just a small sampling of their work and its just getting worse. The Zetas are in an all out war with the now allied Sinaloa and Gulf Cartels and the Zetas who never had a great grasp on sanity are now completely off the chain. They set fire to a Monterrey casino killing 59, they whacked 4 marines in Xalapa, there is a list that is pages long with 3k dead people since Jan 1st.

The cartels run Mexico end of story, fuck Chapo Guzman set up 14 headless bodies with a giant ass banner in Nuevo Laredo's town center after the mayor said Sinaloa wasn't operating their. They control upwards of 80% of Mexico flat out, they have people in every level of Mexican law enforcement, they are far more brutal, better funded and much quicker than any gov't in Mexico City will ever be. The Zetas are largely ex-GAFE dudes who were too fucking crazy for CDG, you aren't going to beat them without an all out war in the streets.

One of our clients is a large Mexican manufacturing company that does alot of business all over Mexico and last week that dude told me this shit is coming down, the official gov't is fucked and the cartels are just getting increasingly violent in a mostly irrational sense.

We simply have to acknowledge our role in this shit and do what we have to do. So when and if we do what is the tipping point that gets us involved in a real level ?

Take a page from RP and start by decriminalizing MJ.

Beyond that, what are the primary profit centers for the Mex. Cartels?

Originally Posted by Bunion

Take a page from RP and start by decriminalizing MJ.

Beyond that, what are the primary profit centers for the Mex. Cartels?

MJ, Coke and Meth but only kind of.

90% of coke in this country comes from Mexico so that's alot of ducats.

Oh well, never had much use for Blow, legalize it too.

And as I have always said, just legalize all the drugs. Sell them out of guberment stores rather than privately run dispensaries. Guberment taxes drug sales to support drug education and addiction/dependency programs. Selling drugs is a death penalty offense as the guberment will not tolerate any competition. Drugs can only be bought by adults 21 and up like booze. Give drugs to a minor, sit in jail for 10 years.
That would put the cartels out of business in a year. End the fucking prohibition on drugs. All it does is make vicious fucking people rich.
Eeeeerrr and then I will be the first guy in line for ludes and shrooms

Originally Posted by liv2ski

And as I have always said, just legalize all the drugs. Sell them out of guberment stores rather than privately run dispensaries. Guberment taxes drug sales to support drug education and addiction/dependency programs. Selling drugs is a death penalty offense as the guberment will not tolerate any competition. Drugs can only be bought by adults 21 and up like booze. Give drugs to a minor, sit in jail for 10 years.
That would put the cartels out of business in a year. End the fucking prohibition on drugs. All it does is make vicious fucking people rich.
Eeeeerrr and then I will be the first guy in line for ludes and shrooms

Say we legalized drugs -- where exactly would the gov't get their supply of MJ/Heroin/Coke/Meth? Big pharm?

Originally Posted by 13

Say we legalized drugs -- where exactly would the gov't get their supply of MJ/Heroin/Coke/Meth? Big pharm?

You got that one nailed.

The question wasn't whether we know the solution, we clearly do, but how the fuck we actually get to that place.

Originally Posted by ArmadaBC

The question wasn't whether we know the solution, we clearly do, but how the fuck we actually get to that place.

Reality is a bitch.

Until Mexico degenerates into a full blown Lebanon style civil war there will be no changes. Election year and all those other shitty excuses.

Sounds right around the corner.

Maybe if some of the Cartels hijacked some airliners using box cutters and..............

Shit...........

This is something of a tangent, but it's sort of interesting in a Breaking Bad sense to see how much money is involved in drug operations. In this story criminals worked with doctors and pharmaceutical suppliers to supply oxy selling to an addicted loyal customer base generating so much cash in the process that they ended up burning dollar bills in barrels because they weren't larger bills:

The deluge of cash became a problem. Employees could be heard on the wiretaps complaining about cash drawers being stuffed to the top. It wasn’t worth keeping dollar bills, so those were separated and then burned by the barrel. Bigger bills were stuffed into garbage bags, then hauled to a bank. Chris George’s wife, Dianna, accepted the chore of making these rather suspicious deposits, although not without grousing that she’d become her husband’s “money mule.”

Other cash-filled bags went to the home of the Georges’ mother, Denice Haggerty, who stacked it in safes in her attic. At one point, says a friend of the Georges, there were 14 safes in the attic, each containing $1 million. Haggerty, who divorced John George in 1988, pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit wire fraud and was sentenced to 30 months in prison.

The cash piled up despite the brothers' free-spending ways. Jeff George bought a monster truck, multiple Lamborghinis and a Mercedes Saks 5th Avenue Edition. There were only five of those cars made, and George liked his so much that when he totaled it, he bought himself another, according to a friend.

Jeff George assembled a small navy, including a 36-foot racing vessel, a 39-foot sports boat and two yachts, 38 and 55 feet in length. He also bought the shopping plaza housing his favorite strip club. The purchases were a convenient way to launder money, according to the indictment.

It begs the question, how much do pharmaceuticals make off of illegal pain killers?

Originally Posted by ArmadaBC

The question wasn't whether we know the solution, we clearly do, but how the fuck we actually get to that place.

You will never get to that place in Amerika, the home of the right wing, God fearing retard. No, the Cartels will eventually run Mexico. They just have a lot more $$$ and resources to work with than the Mexican government. My heart goes out to the people of Mexico. They have to live a nightmare because of our short sighted policies.

Originally Posted by Triage

It begs the question, how much do pharmaceuticals make off of illegal pain killers?

US sales of OXY were $3.5 billion last year so it would seem that illegal perscriptions/etc are a non-negligible percent of sales

I have said it many times,
Again I believe Anti drug laws and the American drug war are the biggest threat to American society.
MJ is simple, the growing and selling of MJ should be ignored by all levels government. It’s a fucking weed! You should be able to grow it in your yard, in a pot like a house plant. Or in a big field like tomatoes.
It should cost next to NOTHING. Government trying to regulate and tax it would be to intrusive and next to impossible .
Restrictions’ for Minors
There should be penalties for selling it to minors or minors in possession. Something similar to Cigarettes.
The other drugs that come from plants? We probably have to use a pharma model, and some gov regulation.
With distribution and purchasing rules similar to Alcohol.

We need fast accurate tests to measure intoxication level for all.
The USA and other countries would be so much better off without a Government WAR ON DRUGS
The WAR on DRUGS has turned into a massive war on civil liberty.
It costs too much. It has wrecked countless lives, it has corrupted countless government agents at all levels.
It has created a ruthless wealthy criminal underclass in the USA and other countries.

Originally Posted by Triage

It begs the question, how much do pharmaceuticals make off of illegal pain killers?

I think you mean legal painkillers.

It's not the pharmaceutical companies to blame. It's shady physicians, state laws that allow prescribers to have in-house pharmacies and dispensaries, and above all; no mandatory routine testing of patients using double mass-spec equipment that goes down to at least 10ng/mL to ensure that the patients aren't diverting their scrips or are in non-compliance.

Hell, pharmaceutical companies have employed countless ways to combat prescription drug abuse, especially in the field of opiates. Most notably was changing the formulation of branded oxy to a compound that turns to gel when crushed so the patient can't snort it. This makes it less valuable on the street and even easier for the DEA to see who's ordering the most generic formulations of oxy so they can ensure that the physicians who are are above board. Routine rac audits and DEA audits are commonplace. Trust me, they're on top of this.

The pharmaceutical industry is not the party at fault here for making a legal and needed product. Shitty doctors, clinic owners, and a lack of basic medical procedure, oversight and enforcement are to blame. There are right ways and wrong ways to treat pain, and neither involves blaming the drugmaker.

Now, wasn't this thread about MX? Yeah, I'll never go back. Way too many other nice places to go.

We won't get involved until some pretty little white co-ed gets her head chopped off in Cancun on spring break.

Didn't think my timeshare could become less marketable.

The Zeta's are bad-ass. They are former special-ops troops from the Mexican Army who went rogue.

The downfall of many countries has been when the military goes over to the darkside. Sadly, we are seeing it happen to our neighbors to the south.

Originally Posted by Bunion

Sounds right around the corner.

I agree with you here. Mexico freaks me out. Too many psychos. And I don't mean extremely violent guys, I mean psychos.

Originally Posted by BmillsSkier

I think you mean legal painkillers.

Yeah, illegally distributed, illegally prescribed or over-prescribed etc. legal painkillers. If the article is in any way related to the OP's thread—and that may well be a stretch—is that we're talking about enormous amounts of money, in comparison to a relatively small time operation generating enormous amounts of money, and that's what's buying power & influence in Mexico.

There are so many factors in this cluster that it's hard to fit it into one thread. Live2ski...it's not just "Right-wing, God-fearing retards", as you put it, to blame. http://www.opposingviews.com/i/socie...dget-appalling
The war on drugs has been from across the political spectrum. In fact, it seems like the ONLY people I've seen truly advocating the decriminalization of drugs have been far, far right people (ie Libertarians). I'm also a Right-wing, God-Fearing "retard", and I believe some of the very same things as most of you have stated above in this thread, but hey...thanks for generalizing! For the record, I don't smoke or have any desire to partake in any recreational drug, in any form. I just see the obvious results of prohibition, and what's going on now. If people want to do drugs, let them. Weed is obviously no worse than drinking alcohol and cigarettes (heck, it's probably healthier!). But, IF they choose to do coke, for example, I think they should sign a waiver, voluntarily opting out of any possible future medical treatments related to the drug. This will be especially important if we move toward socialized medicine. Let people pump whatever garbage they want to into their bodies, but I sure as hell don't want to pay the penalty for their stupidity. Weed on the other hand, is pretty much a non-issue and it's retarded that the DEA enforces it like they do. That's on our side of the border, though. Let's talk about Mexico.

Mexico itself has many things working against it, primarily culturally. There is so much more than just US policies at the root of their problems. First off, if you know anything about latin-American culture, it's that bribery is a perfectly acceptable business practice. It's the way their world works. Want to get into politics? You better have some money to bribe the police for protection. Want to open a business? Better have some money to bribe the politicians. Want to get a contract with another business down there? Better pay up. Thus, there is BLATANT corruption from top to bottom. They don't even bother hiding it.

A brief lesson about Mexico: Another problem is that their people have been heavily oppressed since the days of the Spanish conquistadors. Ever notice that most of their politicians, movie and novela stars, and elites are white? It's because the highest order of society there is of Spanish descent. The reason I mention this is because the average citizens are almost used to being opressed and rarely have been able to stand up for themselves. The good citizens of Mexico rebelled against the Spanish, and gained Mexico's independance. Too bad the government they replaced wasn't much different. The newly formed Mexican government was afraid of an uprising, and didn't want another rebellion even though that's how they got there in the first place. Thus, they removed the rights for their citizens to bear arms. In Mexico, your normal citizen can not have a handgun to protect their homes, or form militias. As a result of this, the people are completely powerless against the drug cartels. Ever wonder why it's so out of hand on one side of the river, and comparatively peaceful on our side? I think it's because our ranches are armed to the teeth, and wouldn't think twice about banding together to take care of business (almost like the Minuteman Project?). Gun control in Mexico is a perfect case study of what happens when you don't allow the law-abiding citizens to protect themselves...the criminals can do as they please, as they obviously pay ZERO attention to those silly gun laws.

And before I get accused of not knowing what I'm talking about, not only did I grow up in South Texas, but I spent much of my younger life living in Mexico. Went to a wedding with a now ex-gf in Monclova (a steel-mining town in Coahuila) a couple years ago (2010 I think), saw just how horrible things had become, and decided not to go back until things calm down. I personally witnessed some pretty jacked up things. I love Mexico and the wonderful people there, so it pains me to see what's going on, and sucks even more that I can't visit my friends on random weekends like I used to.

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

And before I get accused of not knowing what I'm talking about, not only did I grow up in South Texas, but I spent much of my younger life living in Mexico. Went to a wedding with a now ex-gf in Monclova (a steel-mining town in Coahuila) a couple years ago (2010 I think), saw just how horrible things had become, and decided not to go back until things calm down. I personally witnessed some pretty jacked up things. I love Mexico and the wonderful people there, so it pains me to see what's going on, and sucks even more that I can't visit my friends on random weekends like I used to.

Austin, I would be the first to say that was a very solid take. As far as my comment on the right wing, God fearing retards, I stand by my comment in the context it was made. THOSE PEOPLE will never decriminalize drugs. I have many friends and associates in that group. I ask them if they smoked pot in High School/College and the answer is always yes. However, not a one of those fucktards would vote to legalize pot now that they have found the Lord. Honestly, I love those guys as they are some of my oldest friends, but Jesus, religion has made them non rational. I always tell my wife we need to move and make new friends.

Thanks for the compliment, liv. As this article points out, it was a New Hampshire republican that made a good case for a bill helping to decriminalize weed, and was their democrat governor that threatened to veto it.
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/...e_passes_marij
It's not necessarily a right/left, rep/dem, religious/non-religious issue. I found a gallup poll that showed the statistics on it were heavily weighted due to the old fogeys on the "conservative" side. Take them away, and opinions on the drug debate are much more diverse than an initial look at the stats would have you believe. As for your friends? Sounds like they're some good old fashioned hypocrites (found everywhere and on all sides).

Just came across this Photo essay on Mexico's drug war:




From an historical perspective, in America prohibition started out as a Church led middle America movement that was based on temperance and anti-urban, anti-immigration sentiment. Sounds familiar. The problem was that the federal government was largely funded by liquor taxes and liquor tariffs so in order to pass Prohibition, the temperance movement also led the charge to create a national tax on incomes to replace liquor revenues as a way to fund the government.

In other words the hated Federal income tax came about—even though it, "unconstitutionally unapportioned direct taxes"—as a way to replace the alcohol taxes & tariffs in order to make prohibition possible because "native-born Americans" felt they were losing their country to cities filling up with immigrants.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/201205...artels-now-war

MEXICO CITY -- The two most important criminal organizations in Mexico are engaged in all-out war, and the most spectacular battles are being fought for the cameras as the combatants pursue a strategy of intimidation and propaganda by dumping ever greater numbers of headless bodies in public view -- the victims most likely innocents.

No longer limiting themselves to regional skirmishes, the older, established drug-smuggling Sinaloa cartel is now fighting the brash, young paramilitary Zetas crime organization across multiple front lines in Mexico in a desperate fight, according to U.S. and Mexican law enforcement officials and security analysts on both sides of the border.

The two gangs and their surrogates continue to quietly kill each other, but they are also staging public massacres in order to terrify civilians, cow authorities and taunt outgoing President Felipe Calderon, who has made his U.S.-backed confrontation against the cartels a centerpiece of his administration.

"What was once viewed as extreme is now normal. So these gangs must find new extremes. And the only real limit is their imagination, and you do not want to know what is the limit of psychopaths," said Alejandro Hope, a security analyst with the Mexican Institute for Competitiveness, a nonpartisan think tank.

In the past month alone, in what authorities describe as gruesome version of text messaging, the two criminal groups and their allies deposited 14 headless bodies in front of city hall in the border city of Nuevo Laredo, and hung nine people, including four women, from a bridge in the same city.

They have left 18 dismembered bodies in vans near Lake Chapala, an area frequented by tourists and U.S. retirees outside Guadalajara. They used a dump truck to unload 49 more corpses, missing not only heads but also feet and hands, outside Monterrey, Mexico's main industrial city.

To guarantee the widest possible audience, they posted a video of themselves dumping the bodies, plus a banner: "Gulf cartel, Sinaloa cartel, marines and soldiers, nobody can do anything against us or they will lose. . . . "

It was signed with names of Zeta leaders.

"We've had over recent weeks these despicable inhuman acts in different parts of the country that are part of an irrational struggle mainly between two of the existing criminal organizations and their criminal allies," said Mexico's interior minister, Alejandro Poire.

Many of the victims have not been identified, and in the case of the 49 decapitated corpses, their heads have not yet been recovered. It appears likely the victims might not have been members of the warring groups but street criminals, addicts, civilians or migrants just passing through on their way to the United States.

"The killings are done to draw a response from the media, from the government, to bring in the military. So these victims, they are not members of the organizations. They are just random guys. All the evidence suggests this," said Jorge Chabat of the Center for Investigation and Economic Studies, an expert on the drug trade.

"They have never been very careful about who they kill," Chabat said. "They just kill."

For the past few months, based on wiretaps, intelligence from informants and arrests, U.S. and Mexican law enforcement agents say they have been watching the Zetas make incursions deep into the Sinaloa cartel's traditional territories -- even in Sierra Madre towns such as Badiraguato and Choix, once thought as impregnable strongholds for Sinaloa's leader, Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman, the most wanted man in Mexico.

The motivation behind the massacres? "These acts show force. They tell the world, the government, their opponents, that 'I am alive! You have not defeated me. I still am here.' They show muscle," said Martin Barron, an expert on security at the National Institute of Criminal Science.

"Now why have things gone so far? Such brutality? Why cut off the heads, hands and feet? Previously, these organizations settled matters with a bullet in the head. Not anymore. Now there is a psychopathology at work. Some of these people obviously enjoy this, and they are teaching their surrogates, teenagers, to enjoy it," Barron said.

To bolster their defense of regions they control, and to destabilize their opponents, both groups have taken the fight to the other's territory. Part of this strategy is to "heat up the plaza" -- a plaza being a city or town where a criminal group controls corrupt officials and police as well as smuggling routes, a network of safe houses, armories of stashed weapons, and teams dedicated to spying, collecting money and killing.

By heating up a plaza, the warring sides hope to bring in a forceful response by the authorities -- sending in the army or marines, who round up local crime cells and put pressure on the dominant group.

The assassins almost always leave "narcomantas," neatly printed manifestos full of expletives and obscure rants that claim authorship for the killing.

Sometimes the manifestos are accurate; other times they are designed to confuse. In the case of the 49 mutilated bodies left last week outside Monterrey, the Zetas first asserted responsibility for the massacre, then denied it in other banners hung across the state, then finally took credit, perhaps reluctantly, when Mexican military forces arrested Daniel Elizondo, alias "The Madman," a leader of the local Zetas cell.

Elizondo told authorities he had been ordered by the Zeta leadership to dump the bodies in the center of in Cadereyta, an industrial town on the outskirts of Monterrey, but that he became frightened and put them on the highway leading outside of town.

There is no way to know whether Elizondo's confession was true or made under duress. Those arrested for massacres are never tried in open court, the records are almost impossible to obtain, and most are never put before a judge but sent to jail and eventually released. Mexico's prosecution rate for homicides is low.

U.S. law enforcement and Mexican analysts say the outbreak of war is not designed to directly influence the July 1 presidential election.

But front-runner Enrique Peña Nieto of the Institutional Revolutionary Party, which hopes to return to power after 12 years, has stressed that he is more interested in lowering violence than in drug trafficking.

This would put Pea Nieto squarely against the Zetas, who specialize more in carjacking, kidnapping, extortion and smuggling migrants than in smuggling cocaine and marijuana.