Thread: State of the Ski Industry?

When you talk Ski Resort vs. Ski Industry you're comparing two different things.

Ski Resorts profit from real estate sales/rentals, but that business model will likely change (and is already for many resorts).

Skiing is an elitist sport no doubt. Anyone notice that a lot of resorts are focusing heavily on the Latino market? Specifically, very wealthy people in Mexico?

Demographics say the only growth industry out there right now are nursing and funeral homes. The baby boomers are all sliding into home plate and there just won't be that white bread population base willing to throw down big $ on skiing anymore.

It's interesting to see in Whistler that most of the vacation homes are owned by aged out boomers who are all looking to sell. The market is flooded. Who is gonna buy these places? Rich Mexicans? Their kids are the slacker generation who, after sponging off their parents ski cabin their entire adult life, would be put out to actually pay property taxes and general maintenance to keep it in the family.

The last 4 posts bear reading by a lot of ski area GMs and number crunchers.

All 4 are frighteningly close to 100% truth.

Ski industry doesn't make much off lift tickets and opening a new ski area is harder than going to the moon. Just expanding an existing area is like pulling teeth. What does the ski industry care if their numbers remain flat?

The industry needs to do a better job with newbies and first timers. Considering what beginners are exposed to, it is amazing that any even come back a second time. Their first exposure is with the lowest paid, least qualified person putting them in the most ill miffing wrong sized gear then taught by either a buddy or family member who has 4 days on snow more then them or the lowest qualified instructors. It is amazing that under this scenario that there is any retention rate at all.

Considering most ski resorts didn't exist 50 years ago and most of the towns that have sprung up as a result are poorly built condo villages with a 30-40 year lifespan, it wouldn't shock me to see a few of those disappear completely in the next 50 years. 50years ago Whistler was a washed up fishing resort turned mosquito infested logging camp. The ski industry should pray to their lucky stars that it remains flat.

Our organization was formed as of a result of the growing concern the ski industry has taken. It's time to refocus on our beloved sport, get back to being in the uphill transportation business and leave the theme park attractions to Disneyland.

That is a simple and worthwhile manifesto.

Originally Posted by MtnRA

Our organization was formed as of a result of the growing concern the ski industry has taken. It's time to refocus on our beloved sport, get back to being in the uphill transportation business and leave the theme park attractions to Disneyland.

You should replace your current home page mission statement with it. Honest.

Originally Posted by Newsance

1. Most everybody's first day on skis is their worst.
2. The first day on skis is the most expensive (lesson, rental, ticket, etc.).
3. Resorts are breaking it off in people's asses with expecting $120 lift tickets, then rentals, $20 parking, on-mountain food, etc.

Speaking to Flexon Phil's point about retention rates, the second day of skiing/riding may be the most expensive day for the novice, i.e., if they decide to stay in the sport the buy-in for the equipment needed is very high. The first day can be pretty reasonable, e.g., only $35 at SierraTahoe for the lift/lesson/rental package. Many resorts offer this package for less than $100.

Originally Posted by Flexon Phil

The industry needs to do a better job with newbies and first timers. Considering what beginners are exposed to, it is amazing that any even come back a second time. Their first exposure is with the lowest paid, least qualified person putting them in the most ill miffing wrong sized gear then taught by either a buddy or family member who has 4 days on snow more then them or the lowest qualified instructors. It is amazing that under this scenario that there is any retention rate at all.

This hits it on the head, and when you add in the inflated price of lessons of which the average instructor gets about 10-15%,(psia works like a corrupt union), a newbie shells out 2-3 bills for 1 day of struggling to have fun and leaves with a picture of elitism.
the bare bones mom & pop or coop hills always have a more homey, welcoming feel and make happier memories despite lesser terrain.

+1 on back to the business of uphill transport


ps I always point newbies to those package deals and used gear to get started

I have 4 cousins all aged between 6-12 years old and in my opinion are the perfect age to start skiing, snowboarding or backpacking. Their parents (my 1st cousins) all have plenty of money for fucking I-pads and I-phones, new cars, giant home additions and other stupid shit that they really don’t need, so the finances are not the problem. But when they call me and ask “what should I do about Billy... he hates baseball & basketball, soccer isn’t a sport so I refuse to let him play and he is acting out” I always suggest a mountain activity, sometimes backpacking but mainly skiing. And I always get the same lame excuse...

“We don’t have a ski team in our town” or “I don’t trust the boy scouts, too many pedophiles”

Fuck me, everything has to be team oriented or group play with this new generation of kids and it seems like a lot of parents just don’t want to be bothered with anything other than dropping their kid off at some practice field with a coach and supervision. Some of my earliest memories are being dropped off at the mountain in the morning and getting picked up after dark, but when I mention something like that to my family they think I am just a dopehead who doesn’t know any better. Who knows, maybe their correct but I sure am a happy fucker (more than I can say for them & their kids).

Originally Posted by b0ardski

This hits it on the head, and when you add in the inflated price of lessons of which the average instructor gets about 10-15%,(psia works like a corrupt union), a newbie shells out 2-3 bills for 1 day of struggling to have fun and leaves with a picture of elitism.

10-15%, where? I left the mountains, and ski instructing, years ago, but we made FAR less than that. For an 11 person beginner lesson, which Squaw would have collected 550$ for, I would have made 22$.

The lack of money was one of the things that kept many instructors doing it part time. It made more sense to teach holidays, and every other weekend, and work nights doing something else.



I don't know how it currently is, but when I was teaching instructors sure as hell were not overpaid.



As far as the expense, it is pricey for kids to grow up skiing.

I started playing ice hockey at age 9. It can be an expensive sport, pricier than the other sports I was into. You can't get used skates, but there was a network in the community of people selling used equipment, knee pads, hip pads, shoulder pads.....This helped make the sport more affordable. I would think that similar situations would work for skiing. Boots are obviously going to be pricy, but used skis and bindings can definitely help keep kids on the hill.

Originally Posted by powder11

Considering most ski resorts didn't exist 50 years ago and most of the towns that have sprung up as a result are poorly built condo villages with a 30-40 year lifespan, it wouldn't shock me to see a few of those disappear completely in the next 50 years. 50years ago Whistler was a washed up fishing resort turned mosquito infested logging camp. The ski industry should pray to their lucky stars that it remains flat.

This is important, although the time frame should be more like 30 years, the great money expansion period, and factor, big time, Japanese flushness in the late 80s - early ninties that essentially built that place and gave it momentum. Whistler, by geographic advantage, will always have the Asian market, a very strong and solid market to the future.

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Whistler, by geographic advantage, will always have the Asian market, a very strong and solid market to the future.

What Asian market?

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

What Asian market?

Whore Foods?

Seben Ereben??

Makudonarudo???

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

What Asian market?

Ask Niseko.

There is a Chinese 'skiing' boom. One of the worlds most populous new-rich nations just discovered skiing.

For the new-rich Chinese, image counts for more than anything.

Vancouver + Whistler has image appeal and is relatively easy access for the Chinese. Actual skiing is largely irrelevant.

IMHO the boom is a bubble, but the Chinese market is an undeniable present day force in some Japanese ski areas, and nearby property.

The Arcteryx Seconds Store is listed on many Chinese language websites and guides as a Must - Do place to visit when visiting Vancouver. Voila many of my people who'd never have their yellow asses anywhere near a mountain posing it up in Dead Bird jackets. Billions upon billions of potential idiot suckers

Originally Posted by Hohes

Ask Niseko.

There is a Chinese 'skiing' boom. One of the worlds most populous new-rich nations just discovered skiing.

For the new-rich Chinese, image counts for more than anything.

Vancouver + Whistler has image appeal and is relatively easy access for the Chinese. Actual skiing is largely irrelevant.

IMHO the boom is a bubble, but the Chinese market is an undeniable present day force in some Japanese ski areas, and nearby property.

There are seven ski resorts reporting to snow-forecast.com at this time.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/02/...try/index.html

The China Ski Association put the number of skiers in China at 5 million in 2005, up from just 200,000 in 2000. The association predicts 20 million skiers by 2014. "But around 80 percent will probably never do it again, because the experience is so bad," says Graham Kwan, CEO of Melco China Resorts the developers of Sun Mountain, Yabuli. It's a factor that has held back the momentum of the Chinese ski industry, where the image is still one of bumpy nursery slopes crowded with first-time skiers snow-ploughing into one another.

For the new-rich Chinese, there is no image appeal to be gained from skiing in China. They want to go to places with branding and image. Foreign winter wonderlands. Niseko, Whistler are the easiest to reach. Though I think Russia may build a few resorts to tap into the nearby Chinese desire to appear to have a western recreational lifestyle based on fashionable stylish sports.

I am not saying it is the future of skiing, but a lot of money is being spent by Chinese 'skiers' and also by wider Asian investors anticipating the boom. Look for rich businessmen from Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong to be buying. I live in a relatively dilapidated burst-bubble ski town in Japan where dirt is cheap and the stories you hear of what some Asian investors think they should buy in anticipation of what they think might happen are outrageous.

Originally Posted by boltonoutlaw

There are seven ski resorts reporting to snow-forecast.com at this time.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/02/...try/index.html

I have a prospectus for an OTCBB shell which was trying to get financing for Chinese ski areas in N China. Pretty funny reading and I would sold them a toxic floorless PIPE without hesitation.

Originally Posted by Hohes

For the new-rich Chinese, there is no image appeal to be gained from skiing in China. They want to go to places with branding and image...

Nevertheless, the same dynamics impacting ski resorts in the USA will eventually catch up to the resorts in China, where most Chinese who ski will be practicing the sport. One does not need to take an international flight to boast of upward mobility.

Originally Posted by boltonoutlaw

One does not need to take an international flight to boast of upward mobility.

You speak in logic. "Face" and bragging to friends about skiing in Van - cou - vah has no logic.

Agreed. There is a huge boom in Chinese numbers visiting Niseko, yet they couldn't give a damn about the epic snow quality or the fact that it is one of the few ski areas in Japan that has liberal off-piste rules. Hell, the Chinese hate Japan. Why don't they just ski at home "like everyone else"? Why fly to Japan to ski when you don't even actually ski?

Image.

Originally Posted by LeeLau

The Arcteryx Seconds Store is listed on many Chinese language websites and guides as a Must - Do place to visit when visiting Vancouver. Voila many of my people who'd never have their yellow asses anywhere near a mountain posing it up in Dead Bird jackets. Billions upon billions of potential idiot suckers

The Chinese are too cheap to buy real Arcteryx. The Chinese market is probably already flush with cheap knock offs selling in the knock off Whistler village they built and then never paid the resort consultants who gave them the plans. Round eye is a fool to think nouveau rich Chinese will throw their money around to save our economy.

Originally Posted by powder11

knock off Whistler village

Totally irrelevant to the thread, but I flew from Germany to BC several years ago. Very first morning, very first time in Canada, I walked around the corner to find a knock off Bavarian village. I'm not German, but it was fucking pathetic! (in a kind way)