Thread: Leica's New Full-frame B&W Camera

This feels like a gimmick to me, but maybe some of you can enlighten me to why I would spend $8k on this?

http://www.pictureline.com/blog/leic...ucts-for-2012/

"Newly developed monochrome CCD sensor with a native resolution of 18 million pixels
100% sharper imaging thanks to direct processing of raw data with no interpolation
Extremely low, fine-grain image noise up to ISO 10,000
Raw data histogram and parameter clipping warning
Various tones programmable
Top cover and bottom plate in black chrome finish
New leatherette body covering
All-cowhide carrying strap
Nik Silver Efex Pro 2 software supplied in addition to Adobe Photoshop Lightroom
Exclusive access to the Leica Monochrom Print Service in cooperation with Whitewall
Original fiber barite print of a Magnum photo from the Leica M Monochrom campaign by J.A. Sobol supplied"

All CCDs are, by definition, monochrome. To process color, a micro color filter array is placed over the CCD (or CMOS sensor, in some cameras).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_filter_array

As a result, the camera (or, if working from RAW files, your desktop software) needs to interpolate and average the color channels, and infer luminosity. This process results in color sensors have lower effective spatial resolution than monochrome for the same sensor resolution. Furthermore, the color filter array is filtering out large amounts of light to each pixel, resulting in reduced luminosity at the sensor. This makes the color sensor less sensitive and more noisy than a bare monochrome sensor.

The rest of the price and gimmickry is classic Leica branding, but the sensor claims are no joke. I've worked with plenty of pure mono CCD cameras for computer vision work, and it's amazing how much better they perform (particularly in low light or at high shutter speeds) if you don't need color for your application.

- Andrew

Originally Posted by weeble

All CCDs are, by definition, monochrome. To process color, a micro color filter array is placed over the CCD (or CMOS sensor, in some cameras).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_filter_array

As a result, the camera (or, if working from RAW files, your desktop software) needs to interpolate and average the color channels, and infer luminosity. This process results in color sensors have lower effective spatial resolution than monochrome for the same sensor resolution. Furthermore, the color filter array is filtering out large amounts of light to each pixel, resulting in reduced luminosity at the sensor. This makes the color sensor less sensitive and more noisy than a bare monochrome sensor.

The rest of the price and gimmickry is classic Leica branding, but the sensor claims are no joke. I've worked with plenty of pure mono CCD cameras for computer vision work, and it's amazing how much better they perform (particularly in low light or at high shutter speeds) if you don't need color for your application.

- Andrew

I was always under the impression that the 3 CCD arrays common in a lot of cameras were one sensor per color. Is that true? I typically only see bayer patterns referenced in CMOS sensors, but that may be more a sign of the times than exclusivity to CMOS.

Originally Posted by kidwoo

I was always under the impression that the 3 CCD arrays common in a lot of cameras were one sensor per color. Is that true? I typically only see bayer patterns referenced in CMOS sensors, but that may be more a sign of the times than exclusivity to CMOS.

You're thinking of Sigma's Foveon Sensor

CCD cameras are preferred over DSLRs for serious astrophotography due to the higher sensitivity and lower noise. With the extreme conditions of astrophotography I can understand it, but are we really hitting the sensitivity and noise limits on DSLRs today to make this a needed/worthy upgrade?

Originally Posted by kidwoo

I was always under the impression that the 3 CCD arrays common in a lot of cameras were one sensor per color. Is that true? I typically only see bayer patterns referenced in CMOS sensors, but that may be more a sign of the times than exclusivity to CMOS.

That's the assumption I was holding as well.

Someone should make a sensor where the filter array can swing out of the way for monochrome imaging. THAT I may be interested in, but I don't shoot enough B&W to justify a separate body.

Originally Posted by Phildo_Baggins

That's the assumption I was holding as well.

Someone should make a sensor where the filter array can swing out of the way for monochrome imaging. THAT I may be interested in, but I don't shoot enough B&W to justify a separate body.

Most every still camera made uses a single sensor for size/cost/packaging reasons. There's Bayer CCDs and CMOS, there's been talk of non-Bayer of each, there's Foveons never going to really make it tech, and some others, but it's all a single sensor.

If you are balking at $8k for a camera... you aren't the Leica market. A Leica lens (like, say, the new 50mmf2 @ $7.5k) will run you close to that new. Sweet cameras though.

Originally Posted by kidwoo

I was always under the impression that the 3 CCD arrays common in a lot of cameras were one sensor per color. Is that true? I typically only see bayer patterns referenced in CMOS sensors, but that may be more a sign of the times than exclusivity to CMOS.

That's what I was taught way back in school.

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

If you are balking at $8k for a camera... you aren't the Leica market. A Leica lens (like, say, the new 50mmf2 @ $7.5k) will run you close to that new. Sweet cameras though.

Eh, I'm not balking at $8k for a camera, just $8k for THIS camera. In general Leica makes some really beautiful stuff.

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

If you are balking at $8k for a camera... you aren't the Leica market. A Leica lens (like, say, the new 50mmf2 @ $7.5k) will run you close to that new. Sweet cameras though.

Yep, and have to say, it would be fun again to shoot again in "only black & white" .
Weird what that does to your brain after couple of days, you actually start to "see" in b&w..

But, have to say, would be interested to see some comparisons between some 5dmkIII/d800 + lightroom vs. the leica results. Like, would the results be big or non existent.

Originally Posted by Phildo_Baggins

Eh, I'm not balking at $8k for a camera, just $8k for THIS camera. In general Leica makes some really beautiful stuff.

For the extra $1.1k you wanted a bigger logo, not no logo? Like the D800E (D800 w/o the anti-alias filter) it offers some advantages and disadvantages over "standard"

find a room you video peeps

edit: meathelmet - out of camera results would be interesting, but there's still the smaller, lighter M9 packaging that it has as advantage.

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

edit: meathelmet - out of camera results would be interesting, but there's still the smaller, lighter M9 packaging that it has as advantage.

Oh yes, I do get it.
But too bad it prolly comes with the handling of the M6ish cameras that I personally never liked.
Do they have the vibe, yes! Are they low key cameras that you can operate stealthily, hell yes.
But would I personally choose some nikon fm2ish camera over it? Yep.

Still nice to see that leica has prolly found its niche in the evolving photo world that Kodak so badly missed. Old reputation and feel repackaged in some cool stuff.
Might be that it is other Leicas departments keeping the camera branch afloat, but still.

What I dont get how the fuck is hasselblad still in the biz.. Superb quality but with such extraordinary prices that..whoa. Hell, you can get a big Red package with the same price..
Very,very,Very few pros nowadays even consider their stuff. /hijack

Originally Posted by Lonnie

You're thinking of Sigma's Foveon Sensor

No, I'm thinking of the 3 CCD arrays that have existed in video cameras for years.

Originally Posted by kidwoo

No, I'm thinking of the 3 CCD arrays that have existed in video cameras for years.

Which is clearly the orange to this thread's apple.

Originally Posted by Tippster

Which is clearly the orange to this thread's apple.

Not necessarily. Still cameras and video cameras are hanging out in a lot of the same hoods these days. In a mechanical shutter-free future be even moreso.


I just had a question about CCDs, that's all.

Originally Posted by kidwoo

Not necessarily. Still cameras and video cameras are hanging out in a lot of the same hoods these days. In a mechanical shutter-free future be even moreso.

Why would you want a couple prisms in the image path if you didn't have to have them there? they aren't magical unicorn prisms, they've aberrations and distortion too.


In stupid news, 2.8 million US for a Leica:
http://www.westlicht-auction.com/ind...=246522&lang=3

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

Why would you want a couple prisms in the image path if you didn't have to have them there? they aren't magical unicorn prisms, they've aberrations and distortion too.

Even though I distinctly remember saying that's exactly what I wanted in life.


Having several video cameras and one dslr in my life, I'm just trying figure out why each suck at certain things and why they're good at others. Relax.

aren't most of the larger sensor video cameras single sensor? (Red, 9000PL, digbolex, etc. can't think of one that's not) it's the smaller 2/3" range that are all 3 sensor


mh - isn't MF pretty much dead these days? even the Leica S-series?

Professional ENG = 3 chip cameras. Most adjustments are manually adjusted (Focus, Aperture, White Balance, Shutter.) Emphasis is on minimal post production processing due to time constraints. Much more forgiving, larger DoF due to sensor size, balance on the shoulder, good built-in audio capture, solid capture formats, bulletproof... easy to operate alone.

Professional "Film" production cameras = mostly single sensor CMOS now - replicate 24p film look better, nearly all functions manually adjusted or changed in post, larger sensors, smaller DoF, more critical focus, internal audio capture for reference only (in most cases,) internal capture formats glitchy, but externally tethered drives pretty much universal... much harder to operate alone.

Prosumer/Amateur: Mixed bag. Some single sensor DSLR based cameras which operate similarly to the above, many more single or triple sensor dedicated video cameras where everything is usually automatically adjusted by the camera.

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

aren't most of the larger sensor video cameras single sensor? (Red, 9000PL, digbolex, etc. can't think of one that's not) it's the smaller 2/3" range that are all 3 sensor

Sure seems like most of the ones geared towards 'digital cinema' are these days. They're all CMOS, that's for sure which is more what gets me. The few outliers like this one are what makes me keep asking why.

http://cinescopophilia.com/aaton-del...er-at-100-iso/

Now is that a sensor that dictates that a splitting prism be used just because it's CCD? (honest question)

I know I'll quit caring once some good global shutter CMOS cameras get released.



edit: ^^^^what tipp said

Originally Posted by weeble

The rest of the price and gimmickry is classic Leica branding...

http://gizmodo.com/5909983/this-is-w...ve?tag=cameras

Why Leicas are so damn expensive...