Thread: Guaranteed Minimum Income

So the Swiss may be experimenting with this again, Canada tried it in Dauphin and they felt it was a great success. Milton Freedman's negative income tax is essentially the same thing.

Theoretically you could replace the vast bureaucracy of the multiple social welfare programs with one rather simple program. Additionally in the limited studies heath care costs were reduced by almost ten percent, ten percent of 3 trillion dollars is hell of alot of ducats.

Now before we get started I'm sure we'll get the no new taxes/gov't crowd but this isn't new in the sense that it just replaces other programs. You don't need any new money, nor do you necessarily need to higher one new gov't worker. Additionally I'm sure there is a why would anyone work argument but in every situation where this has been tried overall hours fell by 5% or 2 hours in a standard week. Fuck who isn't wasting 2 hours a week anyways ?



Good idea ? Bad idea ?

Is there a reason not to try it on a limited basis at all ?

create an incentive for bad behavior and youll get more bad behavior. question is is this more or less incentive than we have now

seems like there's got to be a better way to get the right amount of help to the people that need it, one that would do less to encourage an endless cycle

Originally Posted by ilikecandy

create an incentive for bad behavior and youll get more bad behavior. question is is this more or less incentive than we have now

seems like there's got to be a better way to get the right amount of help to the people that need it, one that would do less to encourage an endless cycle

If this were to be instituted, I would hope it would be an income of less than 40 hours of minimum wage (whatever that might be at the time).

I don't know about you, but I would not be incentivized by << 1k/month. Yeah, some people might be happy with it, so what. Our economy does not need all citizens to work, there simply isn't that much demand for labor. This issue is only going to get more pronounced as technology improves.

Originally Posted by ilikecandy

create an incentive for bad behavior and youll get more bad behavior. question is is this more or less incentive than we have now

seems like there's got to be a better way to get the right amount of help to the people that need it, one that would do less to encourage an endless cycle

There is a better way. It's called private charity. You'd find who the TRUELY needy are quick.

Originally Posted by ilikecandy

create an incentive for bad behavior and youll get more bad behavior.

People will be gunning for that minimum income? I guess you don't understand the entire notion of incentives, or else you think this is a mandatory income.

Or maybe you're referring to when we decided that bankers shouldn't be regulated. That sure created some bad behavior. Good example of incentive based systems. Free market time!

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

People will be gunning for that minimum income? I guess you don't understand the entire notion of incentives, or else you think this is a mandatory income.

Or maybe you're referring to when we decided that bankers shouldn't be regulated. That sure created some bad behavior. Good example of incentive based systems. Free market time!

Did you miss the empirical evidence armada presented showing that where this has been implemented hours worked have decreased? Or are you just in denial as that conflicts with your narrative?

I'll add game theory and basic econ to the long list of subjects you will never be able to understand since reality doesn't conform to your worldview

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

People will be gunning for that minimum income? I guess you don't understand the entire notion of incentives, or else you think this is a mandatory income.

Gunning isn't the word. Sitting on your ass doing absolutley nothing isn't "gunning". People will TAKE the minimum income and free healthcare cradel to grave. It's sooooooo much easier than working 8 hours 5 fucking days a week.

It MIGHT be a good idea.
There are some people that would be content sitting on their ass doing nothing and still being paid a very small income. We don't need them in the work force anyway. It also could give some people the ability to focus on what they want to do without having to take a shitty job just to eat, which in turn could provide a new wave of successful entrepreneurs.

I understand and can fully relate to the conservatards objections, though. On it's face it seems like an incentive for people to do nothing. However, as was mentioned, our economy can NOT employ everyone. It's not possible.

I do wonder if this was in place when I was 18 would I have still joined the navy? Or would I have bought a seasons pass and lived in my car? How long would that have lasted?

It's an interesting idea that shouldn't be summarily discarded.

Originally Posted by ilikecandy

Did you miss the empirical evidence armada presented showing that where this has been implemented hours worked have decreased? Or are you just in denial as that conflicts with your narrative?

2 hours a week? 24 minutes a day? Oh no!

Originally Posted by ilikecandy

to the long list of subjects you will never be able to understand since reality doesn't conform to your worldview

Do you keep track of all other posters misunderstandings in a notebook or do you have a special database of some kind?

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

Gunning isn't the word. Sitting on your ass doing absolutley nothing isn't "gunning". People will TAKE the minimum income and free healthcare cradel to grave. It's sooooooo much easier than working 8 hours 5 fucking days a week.

The fact you'd focus on 8 to 5 says you don't understand the motivated end of the spectrum. Or where the incentives of work and wealth intersect.

As for your right wing claptrap about motivations and incentives - go hang out for a few weeks in Scandinavia. Petty much universal everything. And still, somehow, really good places...

On average, I have been more satisfied with the services I received when visiting Scandinavia than in the US as a whole. And with the exception of the rare neo-nazi nut, there are virtually no worries about safety of person or property (I was in Norway when that went down - so I'm just gonna point out the right has its share of insane terrorists too). The kind of place you can leave a high end camera on the table at a cafe, disappear for ten minutes - and if it is gone, odds are someone politely left it at the counter for safekeeping - as if that were actually needed...

As one of my kids who was working in Norway at the time put it - if you are begging on the street there, it is a choice because all you have to do is ask and you get a roof over your head, meals and medical treatment. Even as imported labor, he got the whole package as well. Never had to use it, but he knew if he was injured guiding rafts or canyoneering - or just doing extreme kayaking on his own time, he'd have 100% modern medical coverage + disability for the term of his contract.

The voting public there is well educated because they invest in that as a society. The results are tangible.

No place or society or government is perfect. But the Scandinavian countries offer an interesting "existence proof" of sorts in the context of this discussion. As do the Falklands, but that's a strange case of crazy wealth and circumstance all its own.

Originally Posted by spindrift

As do the Falklands.

Huh?????

Originally Posted by spindrift

The fact you'd focus on 8 to 5 says you don't understand the motivated end of the spectrum. Or where the incentives of work and wealth intersect.

As for your right wing claptrap about motivations and incentives - go hang out for a few weeks in Scandinavia. Petty much universal everything. And still, somehow, really good places...

On average, I have been more satisfied with the services I received when visiting Scandinavia than in the US as a whole. And with the exception of the rare neo-nazi nut, there are virtually no worries about safety of person or property (I was in Norway when that went down - so I'm just gonna point out the right has its share of insane terrorists too). The kind of place you can leave a high end camera on the table at a cafe, disappear for ten minutes - and if it is gone, odds are someone politely left it at the counter for safekeeping - as if that were actually needed...

As one of my kids who was working in Norway at the time put it - if you are begging on the street there, it is a choice because all you have to do is ask and you get a roof over your head, meals and medical treatment. Even as imported labor, he got the whole package as well. Never had to use it, but he knew if he was injured guiding rafts or canyoneering - or just doing extreme kayaking on his own time, he'd have 100% modern medical coverage + disability for the term of his contract.

The voting public there is well educated because they invest in that as a society. The results are tangible.

No place or society or government is perfect. But the Scandinavian countries offer an interesting "existence proof" of sorts in the context of this discussion. As do the Falklands, but that's a strange case of crazy wealth and circumstance all its own.

The USA does not have the same culture as Scandinavia when it comes to social responsibility and work ethic. Socialism works somewhat for small homogenous countries that don't breed an entitelment mentality. Sooner or later it will be a clusterfuck in Scandinavia too, like it is in Spain, France, Italy..... and it definetly won't ever work for us.

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Huh?????

The Falklands are truly fascinating. And, on a per capita basis, one of the wealthiest "countries" in the world. And that's before oil starts flowing... Sort of a "Local Hero" gig. Funny to look up the wealth stats and then see people's allocations in the "peat commons". And know that they can call a cab to visit a friend. A free cab (AFAIK). With wings... Wanna go to university? No worries... etc. Per capita GDP was 55K per person in 2002. Apparently higher now. And like I said, before all that oil gear being staged there last year was deployed.

Check them out on Wikipedia and CIA Factbook. But I probably shoud not have taken this thread there...

Originally Posted by spindrift

The Falklands are truly fascinating.

Ok.....

Originally Posted by Tippster

2 hours a week? 24 minutes a day? Oh no!

Cool. So you dont understand the concept of an average. i'm sure those minutes wont be concentrated among any particular segments of the population

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Do you keep track of all other posters misunderstandings in a notebook or do you have a special database of some kind?

in this forum i find its pretty easy to just remember the rare occasions when a poster DOES understand something

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Do you keep track of all other posters misunderstandings in a notebook or do you have a special database of some kind?

The funny thing is that if the kid had actually gotten beyond the intro classes he'd understand why econ and game theory both help dismantle his idiotic points. But arguing with a committed ideologue with a semester and a half of econ under his belt is tough going...

Originally Posted by ilikecandy

in this forum i find its pretty easy to just remember the rare occasions when a poster DOES understand something

what do you mean? please be specific

The narrative certain individuals espouse that somehow your success is based on your individual work alone is fucking insane, its the narrative of dumb fucks.

You do nothing on your own, everything you fucking do in life is a group effort. No one on this planet would exist for than a millisecond if we all didn't mostly work together.

Additionally when a system is developed either through intent or organically, or in our case a mix, you know from the genesis that this system will not be able to produce a zero percent error rate. That is a physical impossibility. Nor will it be able to remain in one state for any real length of time, nothing in the entire fucking universe remains in one state.

Now knowing this while also knowing that this system is the only means of resource allocation it boggles my fucking mind that individuals still buy this horseshit narrative of picking yourself up by the boot straps or just work harder you lazy fuck. Those people that truly abuse the system are such an insignificant % that to find them would be multiple times more expensive than just living with it. Lastly even if your stupid little mind is obsessed with the biggest fucking nothing in existence, money, how you cannot see the simple fact that you make more money when these people maintain buying power than simply letting them rot into oblivion is beyond my comprehension.

The goal for humans must move from consumption to a richer understanding of existence or we are surely doomed.

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

what do you mean? please be specific

what part of my post dont you understand? be specific

Originally Posted by ilikecandy

what part of my post dont you understand? be specific

I was wondering how you without a clue are able to evaluate so many so successfully. Stokalicious brah!