Thread: Why the boners for Sally clamps with driver toes?

Originally Posted by pesto

Are the driver toes the same as the ones that were used on the 912s (2004ish). The last pair of 912s I had the wing width adjustment screw kept stripping. Solomon replaced them twice but I finally gave up them.

No. Spheric and Spheric II toes have the single-screw toe wing adjustment (that strips), and the Spheric adds a lot more slop and premature blowout risk than the original Driver design. Lots of people had problems blowing out of 912/914s, particularly on wide skis. There's a reason people hoard 997s.

Personally I find the Look/Rossi bindings (even Axial2) work even better than the Salomons, but a lot of people like to hear the "click" when they step in.

Also, to people who think Tyrolias suck, they don't. You have the forward pressure set incorrectly. If Tyrolias aren't run with adequate forward pressure they will prerelease constantly. Anything with DIN 12 and above is fine: the DIN 14 toe is the most solid. I still prefer Looks, though.

Originally Posted by Spats

Also, to people who think Tyrolias suck, they don't. You have the forward pressure set incorrectly. If Tyrolias aren't run with adequate forward pressure they will prerelease constantly. Anything with DIN 12 and above is fine: the DIN 14 toe is the most solid. I still prefer Looks, though.

Truth. When setting up a Head/Tyrolia, set it so that the forward pressure is in the middle of the range, like you would do with any other binding. Then move it one click tighter. And the "Race Diagonal" toe has a stiffer upward release than the "Diagonal" toe. The Race Diagonal toes were the metal 15+ din versions.

I would rather ski a Mojo 15 than a FKS, but that's just my personal opinion. I'm not saying that the FKS is bad, I think it's a great binding, I just do not like to ski them.

Originally Posted by Ski to Be

Haha . So true. But if you think about it pretty much any ski related problem is a first world problem. I don't think they really care in central Africa wether Jesters or Sollys are better.

I don't think 99% of the USA, or 99% of skiers in the USA care either. Definitely a niche problem.

Originally Posted by Spats

No. Spheric and Spheric II toes have the single-screw toe wing adjustment (that strips), and the Spheric adds a lot more slop and premature blowout risk than the original Driver design. Lots of people had problems blowing out of 912/914s, particularly on wide skis. There's a reason people hoard 997s.

Thanks Spats - I did not know any of that, but now I feel like I should have.

Originally Posted by jondrums

Thanks Spats - I did not know any of that, but now I feel like I should have.

Ask Superstar Punani how much he loves 914s

Seriously, you kind of had to ski them on fat skis to understand. The 912/914 (Spheric II) came out a couple years before skis started getting REALLY fat, and it took until then for people to realize how much they sucked on fat skis.

Remember how the Driver/Spheric mechanisms work: they turn twisting at the toe lug (downward pressure on one side of the toe AFD) into easier toe release. You can see how a wide ski would cause this to happen in a normal turn, not just a twisting fall. Result: random blowouts.

Each generation increased this effect substantially: Spheric more than Driver, and Spheric II more than Spheric I.

(I haven't ridden any of the STH bindings, but I suspect Salomon turned the volume way down on the Spheric mechanism for the STH14. The Quadrax toe on the STH12 and below works completely differently.)

Personally I strongly prefer the Look and Tyrolia toes, because they solve the twisting problem in a way that doesn't affect lateral release. Both allow upward flex in the toe wings, but in neither case does it cause lateral release to become easier AFAIK.

I personally prefer Look to Tyrolia because they're not so dependent on forward pressure and have greater elastic travel -- but both are reasonable bindings if adjusted correctly. (As Caucasian Asian notes, Tyrolias should be adjusted to the high end of their forward pressure indicator range for best results.)

Spheric is gonzo on all of the STH offerings, I think you are absolutely correct that the wide skis exacerbated a design flaw. I first noticed it on S912ti's and pocket rockets. I had the same spheric design bindings on Rossi XXX's and Xscream series and didn't ever notice it (probably due to stiffer skis covering up the binding's weakness)

anyway, most of the new driver toes have the simultaneous wing adj that needs attention (periodic tightening or add loctite) but AFAIK, none still have the spheric AFD.


edit: also, the driver toe has a good amount of elasticity so you shouldn't see pre-releases like you did with spheric. The spheric mechanism (there's a thread on it somewhere here) physically pushes the toepiece up&out in the diagonally upward direction on the same side of the "pressure plate".

I noticed this on hard turns with a good amount of tip deflection - e.g. moguls, coming off a slope onto cattracks, hitting chunder/avi debris in open bowls. Again, the super softy PR's contributed a ton here...

Originally Posted by jfost

Spheric is gonzo on all of the STH offerings, I think you are absolutely correct that the wide skis exacerbated a design flaw. I first noticed it on S912ti's and pocket rockets. I had the same spheric design bindings on Rossi XXX's and Xscream series and didn't ever notice it (probably due to stiffer skis covering up the binding's weakness)

You're right: I fondled the STH14 at the shop and it's just a regular AFD. Hey -- now that Marker sells mostly Duke and Jester variants, is this the first time in history that all the mainstream 12+ DIN bindings don't suck?

Originally Posted by jfost

I noticed this on hard turns with a good amount of tip deflection - e.g. moguls, coming off a slope onto cattracks, hitting chunder/avi debris in open bowls. Again, the super softy PR's contributed a ton here...

Absolutely. Once skis started hitting 90+ in the waist, the problem started becoming obvious.

Originally Posted by Lord Thomas

Haven't been on a Sally clamp since the 747's way back when so I'm wondering what's the big deal? Do they ski any different? Do they stroke your sack on the lift? Yes, I did do a search and it really didn't tell me much so don't be a dick and tell me to search...............Fuck it, go ahead and be a dick, but also tell me why you love the stupid things more than.......say........Pivots, or Mojo's, etc.

LT

I can see why you don't understand, the 747's had the short wings and had very little elasticity, once they introduced the 957...they became legend. What does stand above is the Equipe which evolved to the Sth..the differentiation is the 5 screw mount heals and the 'worm" heel. The toe also has the most adjustability between height, wing adjustment (laterally on the Sth's). Brakes are easy to switch and the mounting is easy due to the availability of jigs since the mount pattern hasn't changed since 1989.

What also just works is the single pivot toe design, that also works great on the Look Pivots going back to the Nevada toe.

Driver toe? Sigh, how do people not know that Driver refers to the rubber suspension beneath the AFD and heel, not the toe pieces themselves. That's why the 957s aren't called drivers, even though they are the same mold as the 977s.

Equipe Drivers are rock solid, inexpensive, and highly resistant to the passage of time. Absolutely bomber.

"Driver" was just a feature of their toe design. It was common to swap the "driver" AFD of a 977 with the "Multicontrol" AFD of the 957's. People call these Drivers because it was the only word written on the binding. 957 and 977's were NOT of the same mold even though the function was identical, the shapes were different.

The plastic toe AFDs are far too fragile IMO and should be made easier to swap out rather having to ghetto up a JB weld solution.

Otherwise, awesome bindings.

Originally Posted by Rasputin

Driver toe? Sigh, how do people not know that Driver refers to the rubber suspension beneath the AFD and heel, not the toe pieces themselves. ...

Sigh, I had no idea...

Originally Posted by Flexon Phil

"Driver" was just a feature of their toe design. It was common to swap the "driver" AFD of a 977 with the "Multicontrol" AFD of the 957's. People call these Drivers because it was the only word written on the binding. 957 and 977's were NOT of the same mold even though the function was identical, the shapes were different.

Phil I will defer to you on this, as soon as you post pics of them (I know you have a whole museum of Salomons sitting idle) and point out how their shapes are different. To me they look exactly the same, but I don't have any 957s to illustrate my supposition.

I will also defer to you on Multicontrol as an AFD, as soon as you explain why all my Drivers say multi-control on them, including the DR9s. I always thought multicontrol to be the action of the toe piece, and what they called it before they started calling it Spheric in the 900s (which people often apply to the AFD, even though there were two very different AFDs on bindings bearing the Sphereic name on the toe piece).

here's phil's pic from another thread... you can see the yellow/black "spheric AFD" on the right side - that is the 1st iteration IIRC



here is someone else's pic showing the newer "spheric" AFD...


edit: also, since Salomon themselves call the "sth14 driver" the version with the "driver" toe vs. the "quadrax-style" toe, I think it is safe to use that terminology...

Originally Posted by Spats

No. Spheric and Spheric II toes have the single-screw toe wing adjustment (that strips), and the Spheric adds a lot more slop and premature blowout risk than the original Driver design. Lots of people had problems blowing out of 912/914s, particularly on wide skis. There's a reason people hoard 997s.

No. Salomon 900s have Spheric toes, and have dual toe wing adjustments. It wasn't until the 912 series that they went to the crappy single toe wing adjustment. I will say though, that the 900s seem to have more trouble with toe wings loosening than the Drivers did.

OK, I pulled some bindings down and took some pics. I was incorrect in saying that the 957 and 977 toes were different, they are the same, it is the heels that change, Rasputin was correct here. The toe evolution was from the 977 to 997.

Here are some pics of the "Drivers", Multicontrol and 997's AFD's. Along with a Driver assembly broken down. You will also see that a Driver can be retrofitted to a 957 also.

OK, I pulled some bindings down and took some pics. I was incorrect in saying that the 957 and 977 toes were different, they are the same, it is the heels that change, Rasputin was correct here. The toe evolution was from the 977 to 997.

Here are some pics of the "Drivers", Multicontrol and 997's AFD's. Along with a Driver assembly broken down. You will also see that a Driver can be retrofitted to a 957 also.

what did EXP mean? I have 977 demos and 977EXP's, the differences seem to be 2 din higher and the SS under and wrapping around the AFD on the EXP

Originally Posted by XXX-er

what did EXP mean? I have 977 demos and 977EXP's, the differences seem to be 2 din higher and the SS under and wrapping around the AFD on the EXP

EXP was just a cosmetic variation, a tab heel, not a worm.

This thread gives me boners.

As do my STH's.

Originally Posted by Flexon Phil

... Along with a Driver assembly broken down. ...

that really seems like a precursor to the Spheric system, does that 977 AFD articulate on its baseplate?

I have a Binding that looks pretty much like a 997, but only has a 12 din. the heel and toe have demo tracks, but doesnt have the big plate underfoot. its yellow and says Equipe, Driver, and multidirectional. Ill post pics later. Anyone know what these are? Just a Demo version of the 997? Appears to have a lot of metal in it. Toe and heel are same shape as my 957's, but 957's are composite/

Anybody know what this is?

Originally Posted by jfost

that really seems like a precursor to the Spheric system, does that 977 AFD articulate on its baseplate?

YEs a precursor to the Spheric.

Originally Posted by P-90-X

I have a Binding that looks pretty much like a 997, but only has a 12 din. the heel and toe have demo tracks, but doesnt have the big plate underfoot. its yellow and says Equipe, Driver, and multidirectional. Ill post pics later. Anyone know what these are? Just a Demo version of the 997? Appears to have a lot of metal in it. Toe and heel are same shape as my 957's, but 957's are composite/

Anybody know what this is?

Sounds like a demo binding.

a-ma-zing!

So the only sally toes without any "unlocking" connection to the AFD are the newer ones? What about the orig. 916/920? Guess that's what makes those popular?!? I swore I'd never ski another spheric after my Blue Noodle PR debacle, strange I thought it was only the S912 era to worry about...

Originally Posted by jfost

Spheric is gonzo on all of the STH offerings, I think you are absolutely correct that the wide skis exacerbated a design flaw. I first noticed it on S912ti's and pocket rockets. I had the same spheric design bindings on Rossi XXX's and Xscream series and didn't ever notice it (probably due to stiffer skis covering up the binding's weakness)

anyway, most of the new driver toes have the simultaneous wing adj that needs attention (periodic tightening or add loctite) but AFAIK, none still have the spheric AFD.


edit: also, the driver toe has a good amount of elasticity so you shouldn't see pre-releases like you did with spheric. The spheric mechanism (there's a thread on it somewhere here) physically pushes the toepiece up&out in the diagonally upward direction on the same side of the "pressure plate".

I noticed this on hard turns with a good amount of tip deflection - e.g. moguls, coming off a slope onto cattracks, hitting chunder/avi debris in open bowls. Again, the super softy PR's contributed a ton here...

The good news is that the older pedal style spheric's can be directly swapped with the newer style flat afd. Just drop the base plate, pop out the little metal thingey (it's pretty obvious because the new toe afd snaps into the hole the 'thingey' is in) and snap on the new flat afd. I've done this to most of my 900's & 916's. 997's are/were fine as they never had the spheric afd.