Who's fault is it that my skis are broken…

[la_grave]

(update April 2015: see also this post on the second page of this thread http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...32#post4470332)

…and can they be fixed?

I bought a pair of Goode Kachina in February. To them I got a pair of Rossignol FKS180 which was mounted by a Rossignol Test Centre here in La Grave. After 3-4 days of skiing, in the middle of regular turn the heel parts of the bindings where ripped out. That is, both heel parts!

Goode claims that the bindings where erroneously mounted, with to small/short screws (an opinion shared by two other "ski technicians" in the village). The shop that mounted the bindnings claim that a "ZICRAL" (a metal plate used to attach the screws used to mount the bindings with) is missing in the construction. Furthermore, they point out, there was no instruction how to mount the bindnings on the ski (=Goodes fault). They used a standard 3,5 (?) mm screw.

Dave Goode reckons that you can put helicoils in the broken holes and that way mount the binding again. Both the shop and another (the best in the village) ski technician are negative to this. They don't think it will be strong enough and the screws will be ripped out again. Helicoils can possibly, they say, be used to fix the odd broken screw but not all four. The option that probably would work, according to them, is to use snowoard inserts, that is, the ones you mount by drilling a hole from the base up through the whole ski. However, such a solution would affect the skis properties very negatively.

Needs some opinions here? Who's fault is it from the beginning? Is it fixable in an acceptable way or is the ski ready to be scrapped?

Pictures

Ski 1















Ski 2

[Hayduke]

Have Dave Goode talk to the shop or the shop talk to him. Either way, if you stay in the middle of the debate, the easier it'll be for them to play you.

[bornincolorado]

wrong forum JONG

[buckethead]

wow! not goode! (sorry, i couldn't resist.)

it sounds like you weren't injured, that's very fortunate as losing two heels could have obviously been pretty disastrous.

i'd agree on the assertion that helicoiling the entire mount would be risky...i know i wouldn't wanna ski on something that was always in the back of my head.

it does look like too little screw there - shouldn't there be more like 5 threads going into the ski?

you could do a whole new mount forward or aft, but hayduke's approach sounds like the way to go.


i had a shop-mounted heel pull out of a ski 600 vert into my first run on them and didn't get hurt in the crash, but had to hike down 1400 ft of big-ass bumps and nearly injured my knees a few times.

only a year later when i pulled the bindings (after the topsheet failed and let water into the core) did i learn that the whole mount was pretty botched, with almost half of the screws mounted via plastic inserts.

it wouldn't hurt to keep the fact that you're lucky to have survived the equipment failure to which they both seem top have contributed.

a good friend was not so lucky after failure in just one toe/boot interface not so long ago.

good luck and consider doing your own mounts in the future.

edit: wrong forum yea, but solid first post, pics and all. as opposed to the "what kind of skis should i buy?" first posts we see all to often

[philth]

That shop is awful. Blaming Goode for lack of directions.....are you shitting me? Goode should take a real look at this case though. All 4 screws in both skis? Thats retarded.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

My opinion is that a shop that mounts bindings to skis should know how to mount bindings to skis so that they don't pull out under normal usage.

They should know how long of a screw to use, how big of a hole to drill, and how to measure and check things beforehand to make sure they get it right. If they can't do these things, they have no business taking your money to mount bindings.

After two botched mounts at two different shops, I do my own now. It isn't hard and I know it's right.

From looking at your pictures I'd say the screws aren't long enough. It's also possible the holes they drilled are too large in diameter, but that's pretty much impossible to determine after the fact. If they assumed there was a metal layer under the topsheet then the holes are almost certainly too large.

I wouldn't trust helicoils to fix that situation, the old holes and the topsheet around them look pretty mangled.

Good luck getting it sorted out, but I would put the blame squarely on the shop. No instructions? Really? If they were unsure because they didn't have a piece of paper to tell them what to do, they could have called the binding manufacturer. That's a completely BS excuse.

[Ted Striker]

Take a ruler or caliper and measure how much screw there is below the rubber pad. If there isn't approximately 8 mm they used the wrong screws. If that's the case, it's the shop's fault, 100%.

EDIT: I didn't realize that the rubber pad came from Goode and/or was part of the ski, but I'm sticking with my assessment of who is to blame. It's obvious that the rubber adds height.

[El Chupacabra]

Is that rubber pad part of the ski? IIRC, some of Goode's skis used a Spatula-type rubber pad on the topsheet -- which effectively reduces the depth of the screw's penetration into the ski.

If the rubber pad is part of the ski, and the amount of screw length is otherwise appropriate (i.e. from the base of the binding downward, sans rubber pad, it measures around 8mm), then I fault Goode on this one.

[nickel]

If instructions were required and they were uncertain, it is still their fault for not seeking clarity. Those screws do seem short, but what pisteoff said, measure for 8mm.

What's the plastic plate? Is this part of the ski? Possible the shop did not account for the extra thickness of this plate?
Edit: El Chupacabra beat me to it!

There's a thread on here about screw pullout strengths if you do a search. One of the surprise conclusions of the test was the shocking resistance to pullout of a big jagged hole filled with epoxy and a (proper length) binding screw in it. Your results may vary, but I'd consider it before thinking about putting t-nuts through the base.

By the sounds of it, the shop bunged things up, but time will tell. Good luck. If everyone ends up giving you the lube-less prostate exam, Jondrums Dyna-look plate would allow you to keep the same mount point and binding whilst moving the holes and getting a more robust mounting pattern.

Also, tech-talk!

[lobstahmeatwad]

No one sites the standard 3 thread rule. 3 threads depending on the pitch of the screw but if you dont have at least 3 threaads in to your material you dont have a good mechanical fastening. Most ski mounts are almost double this. Looks like a few threads shy. Shop has to check that stuff.

[1000-oaks]

Maybe ditch the rubber spacer (wtf good does it do anyway), epoxy the holes, and remount with a different brand binding with a new hole pattern?

You'd think Goode would have a sticker on the ski reminding the shop tech to use longer screws to account for the spacer. Still, the shop should have taken one look at that spacer and realized the need for longer screws.

[1000-oaks]

Nice "carbon fiber" print topsheet, btw. Splat must laugh his ass off when he sees stuff like that...

[Kai]

Goode skis have a history of this.

I had a pair. This happened to me. Do a search. It's a known issue.

[la_grave]

Is that rubber pad part of the ski? IIRC, some of Goode's skis used a Spatula-type rubber pad on the topsheet -- which effectively reduces the depth of the screw's penetration into the ski.

The plastic plate is part of the ski. When I got the ski these plates where not attached to the ski. They are sticky (self-adhesive) and you "glue" them to the ski (which the shop did for me). I have no idea what the purpose with them are?

If the rubber pad is part of the ski, and the amount of screw length is otherwise appropriate (i.e. from the base of the binding downward, sans rubber pad, it measures around 8mm), then I fault Goode on this one.

Why? It is obvious that the plate is 2 mm or so thick. The screws where not included with the skis, rather the shop decided, I guess, what screws to use.

[SuperGaper]

The plastic plate is part of the ski. When I got the ski these plates where not attached to the ski. They are sticky (self-adhesive) and you "glue" them to the ski (which the shop did for me). I have no idea what the purpose with them are?



Why? It is obvious that the plate is 2 mm or so thick. The screws where not included with the skis, rather the shop decided, I guess, what screws to use.

Why? Because binding screws come with binding from the manufacturer.

Goode is the only company I have ever heard of that would add something that
would change the screw depth from what is provided by the binding manufacturer.

For this, they bear some responsibility.

Like you mentioned though, the shop should have questioned the added depth.

I would not be afraid to ski on 8 heli-coils (properly installed, of course).

How does Goode not know that this would cause a bunch of screw ups.

Maybe they should include every conceivable binding screw in a 2mm longer length
than stock to prevent this.

[El Chupacabra]

The plastic plate is part of the ski. When I got the ski these plates where not attached to the ski. They are sticky (self-adhesive) and you "glue" them to the ski (which the shop did for me). I have no idea what the purpose with them are?

Why? It is obvious that the plate is 2 mm or so thick. The screws where not included with the skis, rather the shop decided, I guess, what screws to use.

1) That's strange. I've never seen a stick-on plate for a ski (excepting Deflex-type plates, but those screw on + adhesive).

2) Screws come with the bindings. Cannot fault the binding manufacturer or the shop for this. Binding screws vary in length and shape (head of the screw) depending on the binding; they are not one size fits all.


On the plate: like I mentioned above, this is similar to the thin spacer that Volant used on the Spatula. I believe Volant used that spacer because that ski is thin, and the binding screws would otherwise be too long for the ski. The Volant spacer was rubbery/soft, and IMHO didn't do anything to assist in screw retention. (In contrast to plastic mount plates on predrilled binding system skis, where the binding mounts 100% into hard plastic and holds just fine.)

Question: if you look at your Goode ski in profile, is it thick enough at the binding "footprint" area to accept a full-length screw (approx. 8mm depth)? If not, then that is why Goode has that plate. I still place all of this on Goode.

[SB]

I have had several sets of Volants two which had the plastic top plate adhered to the ski. I used a longer screw that I had to grind down for the mount.

Back to the OP topic. 100% shop fault agreed. If there was any question the shop should have contacted the ski manufacturer, Goode, for the correct procedure.

[Beyond]

The screws look short to me even in the binding, whether they came with it or not. And 3.5 mm seems short for an extra "plate". I'd fault the shop for not being alert to this, just autopilot use-the-screws-in-the-binding-box.

[Jethro]

I agree with everyone who says the shop is at fault. especially when they applied the adhesive backed pad to the ski. They had to know it was not an integral piece of the ski.

The top sheet looks kind of fractured around those pulled out screws. I would not really trust a helicoil or insert in the same holes. I would trust a T-nut though, as long as the ski can take the larger holes. If the shop would agree to T-nut the skis at their cost, I'd be ok with that. Super tough install then. Earlier Goodes had a reputation of breaking, not sure about your model.

[skifishbum]

you bought shitty skis and took them to a shitty shop
feel free to blame rob story for your bad

[jfost]

I blame the FKS binding for bragging about their "small footprint" and "shortest hole pattern"...

[1000-oaks]

Countersunk T-nuts through the base would be the ultimate bomber repair, and even if they're not covered with ptex I doubt 99% of skiers could tell which ski has them and which has a virgin base.

Sure, it would wipe out any resale value, but do used Goode skis really have any have any resale value in the first place? Doubt those in the market for Goode skis buy anything used.

[Jonathan S.]

"Each pair of Goode carbon fiber skis comes with binding shim plates. Due to our thinner carbon fiber / wood core ski profile, we require these shim plates be installed onto the ski top surfaces prior to binding drilling and installation."

As the OP noted, the shim plate is shipped separately, and has some rather unimpressive adhesive-backed highly compressible (i.e., squishy) foam. The adhesive foam doesn't even cover the full width of the plates in some plates (i.e., hardly precision finishing -- looked more like some part from a toy for my toddler), and the plate is narrower than the plastic base plate of a Dynafit Speed toe (i.e,. 4mm overhang on each side, or about 7mm for a Radical toe plate).
So don't count on the plate providing any retention power.

But despite the quoted excerpt from the printed instructions, I was informed via email that I could mount without the plates.
However, this would require lots of careful measuring and grinding of all 18 Dynafit screws to max out the ski penetration while not dimpling the base.
And then I'd still be left with compromised screw penetration.

More specifically, on a 169cm Wasatch with a 287mm bsl, a 7mm junior bit (instead of typical 9mm adult bit) would have allowed for non-dimpling binding screw penetration of about 6.0 to 6.5mm. But the Dynafit Speed screw penetrations are 8.2 and 7.9 mm at the toe and heel (respectively), and probably even more when everything is really cranked down. So the only way for a Dynafit mount to work would have been to file down the bindings screws by at least 2mm, which entails 2mm less of potential retention, and a sacrifice of about 25% of the screw threads.

Fortunately Good honored the money-back guarantee, as I didn't dare trust that kind of binding retention in the backcountry.
I suspect the shop was up against the same conundrum, and did the best job possible, which unfortunately still isn't very good as the OP discovered.

[XtrPickels]

Its your fault... for buying Goode skis.

[bamboocoreONLY]

Take a ruler or caliper and measure how much screw there is below the rubber pad. If there isn't approximately 8 mm they used the wrong screws. If that's the case, it's the shop's fault, 100%.

EDIT: I didn't realize that the rubber pad came from Goode and/or was part of the ski, but I'm sticking with my assessment of who is to blame. It's obvious that the rubber adds height.

I agree with this post the most. The shop was aware of the plastic plate and should (hopefully, otherwise they're complete morons) have use longer screws in that sense of knowing. They're also goode skis which another stated above, have a tendency to do this and probably would've happened even with longer screws eventually, but seeing only 2-3 threads per screw going into that ski is completely wrong and should'nt have gone into your hands like that.