Thread: One thing I don't get about this Zimmerman/Martin thing

One question, that maybe I've just missed. Did GZ's truck have anything marking it as neighborhood watch, special lights, etc?

Originally Posted by XavierD

Meh, not sure when we all became jurors on this case.

Anyone else not have a problem with profiling an unknown young adult black male wearing a hoody with the hood up, walking in a neighborhood that has had a recent history of break-ins? Seems like common sense to me. I don't see anything wrong with going up and asking them what they are doing.

I wonder what percentage of crime is caused by young black males?

Originally Posted by XavierD

I apply that to just about every 'confrontation' I have with someone. If they violently attack me or someone I am with, I will kill them.

Convicting George Zimmerman beyond a reasonable doubt will be difficult, and rightly so. But if young black males are as dangerous as you imply—then engaging in an armed chase at night of a suspect thought to be so threatening it necessitated calling the police, isn't poor judgment, even reckless behavior, when it turns into the shooting of an otherwise innocent unarmed teenager, then it could be you've just described the prosecutors case? Zimmerman's defense had better depend on smarter lawyering than that.


Or maybe you meant that people are not obliged to tell stalkers their business, nor obliged to get a response even if Zimmerman went into that conversation/confrontation with the misconception that Trayvon was up to no good—being chased at night in the rain, possibly grabbed according to the girlfriend, might be perceived as an attack and you would kill them?

Originally Posted by whatcomridaz

One question, that maybe I've just missed. Did GZ's truck have anything marking it as neighborhood watch, special lights, etc?

It's been reported that the neighborhood watch was informal and essentially made up of one person but there may be updated information since then?

Originally Posted by Triage

It's been reported that the neighborhood watch was informal

So no special lights or stickers?

Poor, poor Zimmy.

Edit: Anyway should Trayvon have behaved differently for a pretend police car? or run away faster/further?

Originally Posted by whatcomridaz

One question, that maybe I've just missed. Did GZ's truck have anything marking it as neighborhood watch, special lights, etc?

This is actually a real good point.

My only contact with a "neighborhood watch" was when I visited an aunt in Arizona. They had two old duffers wearing safety-yellow vests walking around with walkie-talkies. Very visable and very obvious who they were.

Zimmerman, to my knowledge, had nothing to identify himself as a neighborhood watchman.

So when he ran up to Travon yelling "What are you doing here ?" (per the girlfriends account) Travon probably though Zimmerman was a Mexican gangmember trying to defend his turf.

Like I have said before, Travon Martin is the one who had the right to "Stand His Ground", not George Zimmerman.

Yeah, I think it can be difficult to remember that Martin had no idea what was going on. We all know that Zimmerman was on the horn with the police and obviously believed Martin was up to no good. Don't fall into the trap that because WE know that, that somehow Martin knew Zimmerman was some kind of authority figure. Martin attempting to either elude OR confront Zimmerman seems perfectly legit considering the situation. In Martin's eyes Zimmerman was a stranger who was apparently stalking him for no reason.

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

OSECS, since you're a father you might see where I'm coming from on this. If my son is profiled as "suspicious" because of his race while doing nothing wrong and only for walking through a neighborhood, then confronted, shot and killed I would be looking for justice. I would hope that my son would stand up for himself against the person profiling him, and standing up for oneself in this case shouldn't result in being killed. So if we think about this from the perspective of our kid being killed I think it changes the perspective a bit.

Without reading some of the previous posts I'd want my son to stand up for himself if threatened (if he felt he needed to, and then only as a last resort. T. Martin had every right to be where he was, and I'd want my kid to feel the same way. We all know that's just not the case unfortunately with regard to race and where you might find yourself.

I think what could to come out of all this is Zimmerman completely and utterly fucked up and this young man was killed as a result. I don't think he was looking to gun him down, and I don't think race was an over riding factor in that I don't think he was looking to shoot a guy cause he was black. He probably may have followed a suspicious white guy or another Hispanic (giving him the benefit of the doubt right now). I'm also betting T. Martin was probably a little scared, 17-18 yr old kid in an unfamiliar neighborhood, I can see him being freaked by some guy following him.

I think this could be a case of the two of them coming face to face and panic on both sides taking over. I don't know if T. Martin came at Zimmerman or not, but if he did, I'm betting he never saw a gun and Zimmerman probably pulled it as a panic/fight or flight thing. Maybe just by being startled by Martin coming around a corner out of no where. Did Zimmerman maybe have it pulled already as Martin and he rounded corners and bumped into each other? That's a whole new story. If they can prove he had it drawn, then he friggin' deserves to go away for a long time.

Bottom line to me any way, is Zimmerman caused this go down when he took a gun into the common area, whether T. Martin came at him or not. Martin was obviously just heading to his dads' house and nothing more, according to the generally accepted as truth, sequence of events). That stand your ground law is cutting both ways here maybe.

Originally Posted by OSECS

Without reading some of the previous posts I'd want my son to stand up for himself if threatened (if he felt he needed to, and then only as a last resort. T. Martin had every right to be where he was, and I'd want my kid to feel the same way. We all know that's just not the case unfortunately with regard to race and where you might find yourself.

I think what could to come out of all this is Zimmerman completely and utterly fucked up and this young man was killed as a result. I don't think he was looking to gun him down, and I don't think race was an over riding factor in that I don't think he was looking to shoot a guy cause he was black. He probably may have followed a suspicious white guy or another Hispanic (giving him the benefit of the doubt right now). I'm also betting T. Martin was probably a little scared, 17-18 yr old kid in an unfamiliar neighborhood, I can see him being freaked by some guy following him.

I think this could be a case of the two of them coming face to face and panic on both sides taking over. I don't know if T. Martin came at Zimmerman or not, but if he did, I'm betting he never saw a gun and Zimmerman probably pulled it as a panic/fight or flight thing. Maybe just by being startled by Martin coming around a corner out of no where. Did Zimmerman maybe have it pulled already as Martin and he rounded corners and bumped into each other? That's a whole new story. If they can prove he had it drawn, then he friggin' deserves to go away for a long time.

Bottom line to me any way, is Zimmerman caused this go down when he took a gun into the common area, whether T. Martin came at him or not. Martin was obviously just heading to his dads' house and nothing more, according to the generally accepted as truth, sequence of events). That stand your ground law is cutting both ways here maybe.

Well said.

Originally Posted by Triage

It's been reported that the neighborhood watch was informal and essentially made up of one person but there may be updated information since then?

I saw similar information, but most of it was from the first few weeks after the incident. Most of that data was sensationalized by the MSM to elicit a response. So I'm hoping there are police photos or even cam footage from the actual night.

The idiots that populate this thread are just as bad as the media.

I'm still not sure which side I'm on, but whatever side I'm on, its obvious my guy was right.

Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

The idiots that populate this thread are just as bad as the media.

leroy jenkins = 11 posts in this thread

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

leroy jenkins = 11 posts in this thread

[hint hint, wink wink]

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

leroy jenkins = 11 posts in this thread

In a 32 page thread? Thats a few sarcastic comments, I haven't even read half this shit, all it is is people saying its OBVIOUS that the completely hypothetical conclusion they choose to believe for emotional instead of logical reasons is right.

Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

In a 32 page thread? Thats a few sarcastic comments, I haven't even read half this shit, all it is is people saying its OBVIOUS that the completely hypothetical conclusion they choose to believe for emotional instead of logical reasons is right.

Just f'ing around man. I've posted a bunch of useless stuff in this thread. I agree, need to reserve judgement until the facts are known.

Edit to add: I ran across this article and it might be helpful for folks like ILC or Jer who have a hard time disconnecting appearance from race and ethnicity: http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolit...-color?ps=cprs

uh oh...another media meme crumbles...

George Zimmerman complained about Sanford police in 2011

ORLANDO — George Zimmerman accused the Sanford police department of corruption more than a year before he shot Trayvon Martin, saying at a public forum the agency covered up the beating of a black homeless man by the son of a white officer.

"I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white," he said during a 90-second statement to city commissioners at a community forum. "It should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those who are in the thin blue line."

The forum took place Jan. 8, 2011, days after a video of the beating went viral on the Internet and then-Sanford police Chief Brian Tooley was forced to retire. The department faced criticism for dragging its feet in arresting Justin Collison, the son of a police lieutenant.

http://www.tampabay.com/incoming/geo...n-2011/1231752

BREAKING NEWS

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...edia-companies

Zimmerman's bail is revoked and he has 48 hours to turn himself in.

He and his wife are now accused of conspiring to hide financial assets during the original bail hearing. Sounds like they had his phone tapped.

Maybe he'll do time for that after getting acquitted for murder, lulz. Is this case still news??

More bad news for Zimmerman - from the Orlando paper I linked to above

"It was also discovered that Zimmerman had a second passport that he did not inform the court about when he surrendered his other passport to the court. The precaution is standard procedure to keep defendants from fleeing the country. State prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda said, "The defendant lied to this court." "


edit: What a dumbass. Two weeks AFTER the shooting he reported to the Federal government that he had lost his passport. They sent him a new one, then when the judge ordered him to turn in his passport, Zimmerman was dumb enough to turn in the one he reported stolen, and keep the new one hidden. Plus he talked to wife about the second passport on a bugged phone. So now he is probably looking at Federal charges too over falsely reporting the passport stolen.

Yeah, that sure does wonders for his (already questionable) credibility.

Zimmerman's wife has now been arrested for perjury.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...utors-deputies

"Four days before she testified to having no knowledge of the funds, the affidavit says, Shellie Zimmerman began a series of transfers into her account — totaling $74,000 between April 16 and April 19."

Here is the money quote from the judge:

"In a document posted Tuesday to an official website, Circuit Court Judge Kenneth Lester provided his rationale for revoking bond:

"There are several factors that weigh against [George Zimmerman's] release: this is a serious charge for which life may be imposed; the evidence against him is strong; he has been charged with one prior crime, for which he went through a pre-trial diversion program, and has had an injunction filed against him. More importantly, though is the fact he has now demonstated that he does not properly respect the law or the integrity of the judicial process.""

So Zimmerman has pissed off the judge. Not a good thing when you are facing a murder rap.

no doubt that the zimmerman's wife fucked up royally on this but why didn't they hit george with perjury too? if the wife gets convicted of perjury does this really affect george's credibility? considering the circumstances, the zimmermans were probably feeling quite desperate with all the media and every liberal pundit convicting them in the court of public opinion. not that this justifies perjury but it does make it understandable.

interesting read, from a lefty site too:

So it seems to me Zimmerman is still entitled to release on bond. And Judge Lester's order yesterday contains a revisionist view of what he ruled on April 20.

If Judge Lester doesn't grant bond on June 29, the defense can challenge his ruling by seeking a writ of habeas corpus. I think he'd be reversed. But in the meantime, Zimmerman will be jailed, and his ability to meet with his lawyers and prepare a defense will be severely curtailed. This seems overly drastic and unfair, since he didn’t falsely testify to anything, and he had a right to remain silent at his bond hearing.

Judge Lester should have issued a written order specifying why he granted bond after the April 20 hearing. Yesterday's order seems to re-write his oral ruling at that hearing.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/13/13212/2614

i have a feeling that the judge is being a hardass simply to overcome public reaction when zimmerman is eventually acquitted. that way he can say he did everything possible against him.

aren't lynch mobs wonderful?

In in response to a verbal provocation this guy invokes "I'm standing my ground" and "escalating the situation" and "I'm in fear for my life" and "I will defend myself" and then shoots three people, killing one:

Zimmerman reenacts the crime:

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/zimm...-feb-27/vcQxd/

Inocent!

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

Inocent!

I was really expecting him to reenact it showing his guilt.

So now we just issue suspects with video cameras and sell all those expensive court houses....?