Thread: One thing I don't get about this Zimmerman/Martin thing

Originally Posted by whatcomridaz

based on after the fact testimony from the Girl friend of the witness? Include the other data out there. i.e the other 5 witnesses.

I'm bemused by your emotional attachment to your version events, so, OK, which of those other witnesses saw the start of the fight?

Didn't the girlfriend—whose cell phone records show was on the phone with Martin—say she overheard Zimmerman surprise Martin after Martin thought he had escaped with Zimmerman calling out to him, "What are you doing around here?"

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

Why did the 911 operater tell him it wasn't necessary to pursue TM then? And why didn't GZ wait at the mailboxes for the cops if he didn't continue pursuit?

Great questions.....

The operator says "we don't need you to do that" to be honest he doesn't even issue a direct order like "stop following him" and given the fear present in GZ's voice at the point he's in the truck and worried about providing his number, the suggestion was more for GZ's own good then TM's.

GZ didn't wait at the maillboxes because he wasn't at the mailboxes. He was 100 yards away. The Dispatcher simply used one of the locations that GZ had mentioned, the dispatcher didn't know the mailboxes were 100 yards away. Remember GZ had been asked by the dispatcher where TM was, he was asked to observe; GZ was also the neighborhood watch again with a responsibility to observe. Why wouldn't it be most logical for him to have the police meet him at the last place the suspicious person was seen? That in turn would prompt him to look for an address of where he was....

Anyways, head high surf and light onshores. I'm heading to the beach

Originally Posted by Triage

I'm bemused by your emotional attachment to your version events, so, OK, which of those other witnesses saw the start of the fight?

Didn't the girlfriend—whose cell phone records show was on the phone with Martin—say she overheard Zimmerman surprise Martin after Martin thought he had escaped with Zimmerman calling out to him, "What are you doing around here?"

BRB after a surf

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

Why did the 911 operater tell him it wasn't necessary to pursue TM then? And why didn't GZ wait at the mailboxes for the cops if he didn't continue pursuit?

He's already followed Martin past the mailboxes and parks his truck when Martin walks into the cut through ~100 yrds down the road, en route to Martin's house. The question isn't why didn't Zimmerman wait by the mailboxes but rather why didn't Zimmerman return to his truck to provide an address for police and then either wait there for police or drive to the mailboxes and wait for the police?

Based on Zimmerman's statement , "Yeah" he's chasing Martin and a while later when asked for his own address he says, "oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is," it's not unreasonable based on the timeline to consider the likelihood that he's still looking for Martin rather than standing around or at the very least not immediately returning to his truck.

Originally Posted by whatcomridaz

Are you a fool or do you just play one on TV?

I will ignore that comment.

Originally Posted by whatcomridaz

I'm quoting from the public transcripts of the 911 call, pairing them with physics, and other witness accounts. You're quoting from the recollection of a stressed young female who would have an axe to grind given that her boyfriend is no longer counted amongst the living.

You are showing an incredible amount of bias if you discount the testimony of Travon's girlfriend because she "has an axe to grind", but you are not willing to acknowledge that Zimmerman could well be lying his ass off in order to avoid a life sentence.

Originally Posted by whatcomridaz

For the Record I fully expect GZ to be convicted, not necessarily because he's guilty but due to the current political environment.

For the Record I fully expect GZ to get off scot-free, not necessarily because he's not guilty but due to the current political environment.

After having looked at this shit for some time now, I think.
Zimmerman followed Martin, Martin jumped Zimmerman and beat is ass.
Zimmerman Shot Martin.
Regardless of provocation when you put your hands on someone, you might get your ass shot.
Zimmerman may have provoked the beat down. He may not have provoked the beat down.

Zimmerman as do all Americans have the right to defend themselves with deadly force.
Don't know what kind of guy Martin was? The press does not seem to be digging into his background.
Zimmerman should end up making quite a bit of money from many lawsuits.

Sad turn of events for all involved.

Here is some actual news, instead of the mutual masterbation that has been going on here on TGR.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-rachel-fugate

The prosecution has delivered to Zimmerman's defence attorney a boatload of evidence. It is now up to the defence to go through it and then the defence can ask the judge to seal some or all of it.

Included is the security tape from the clubhouse. That should be interesting...

Originally Posted by Triage

He's already followed Martin past the mailboxes and parks his truck when Martin walks into the cut through ~100 yrds down the road, en route to Martin's house. The question isn't why didn't Zimmerman wait by the mailboxes but rather why didn't Zimmerman return to his truck to provide an address for police and then either wait there for police or drive to the mailboxes and wait for the police?

Based on Zimmerman's statement , "Yeah" he's chasing Martin and a while later when asked for his own address he says, "oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is," it's not unreasonable based on the timeline to consider the likelihood that he's still looking for Martin rather than standing around or at the very least not immediately returning to his truck.

That's my take on it too...but I"m trying to figure out why comrad has such a different take on this. I listened to the 911 call, read the transcript, and I'm not seeing how one can come to a different conclusion than what you've described...unless you simply take GZ at his word and neglect to acknowledge that he's likely acting in his own self intrest at this point trying to save his ass from lengthly jail time.

Edit to add: Saw this http://news.yahoo.com/abc-news-exclu...opstories.html which seems to support GZs self defense claim. Still, it's looking like he profiled TM and instigated the confrentation. I bet he walks though.

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

That's my take on it too...but I"m trying to figure out why comrad has such a different take on this. I listened to the 911 call, read the transcript, and I'm not seeing how one can come to a different conclusion than what you've described...unless you simply take GZ at his word and neglect to acknowledge that he's likely acting in his own self intrest at this point trying to save his ass from lengthly jail time.

Edit to add: Saw this http://news.yahoo.com/abc-news-exclu...opstories.html which seems to support GZs self defense claim. Still, it's looking like he profiled TM and instigated the confrentation. I bet he walks though.

Sure does. I'm sure we'll see more and more of his story supported as evidence is released.

Question, how do you get the jump on someone with a gun..... Not by being "surprised" by a person with a brandished weapon!!

ABC News Exclusive: Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shooting

A medical report compiled by the family physician of accused Trayvon Martin murderer George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimm...2#.T7N8xzU9Dp8

Autopsy results show Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles

SANFORD, Fla. — WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/...uries-h/nN6gs/

Trayvon had ‘no bruises’ on his body

There were no bruises or other signs of struggle on Trayvon Martin’s body, a mortician said yesterday — despite his killer claiming he struggled with the unarmed black teen before shooting him.
Funeral director Richard Kurtz said Martin was buried with a gunshot wound to the chest — nothing else.
“We could see no physical signs like there had been a scuffle [or] there had been a fight,” Kurtz told CBS News. “The hands — I didn’t see any knuckles, bruises or what have you.”

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...lR9rvOfsWMHBjK

ummmm, right.

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimm...2#.T7N8xzU9Dp8

Also from your link:

"According to the report, prior to the shooting Zimmerman had been prescribed Adderall and Temazepam, medications that can cause side effects such as agitation and mood swings"

why didn't you didn't quote the whole sentence?

...but in fewer than 10 percent of patients.

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

why didn't you didn't quote the whole sentence?

How do you know Zimmerman was not one of the 10 percent ?

Originally Posted by Moeghoul

Dolph = Zimmy? Maybe we can get his old flame Grace Jones as martin. I have to believe Zimmy had his hand on the gun before Martin made a move. If Martin got him down on the ground it would have been pretty hard to be fumbling for a weapon if someone was actually smashing your head on the pavement. Instinctively, you'd be using your hands and arms to protect yourself and try to arrest an attackers arms. it would explain the bloody nose, if it wasn't self inflicted, and any injury to the back of his head.

ummmmmmm....

You're just pulling this shit out of thin air right? I mean, you don't actually think you're using logic do you? People have fumbled for a penknife and been able to use both hands to open it and slit the throat of the mnt lion that was attacking them. That was a 70 year old man in idaho, he crawled like 5 miles afterwards too.


I know what really happened, TM only bumped into GZ because he was trying to run away from the UFO hovering above the neighborhood. GZ tried to shoot it out of the sky but a ricochet caugh TM and he died. Fucking aliens, yea, I know, thats racist.

Meh, not sure when we all became jurors on this case.

Anyone else not have a problem with profiling an unknown young adult black male wearing a hoody with the hood up, walking in a neighborhood that has had a recent history of break-ins? Seems like common sense to me. I don't see anything wrong with going up and asking them what they are doing.

I wonder what percentage of crime is caused by young black males?

In other news, four hoodie wearing adults brutily attacked and robbed a young man in Tampa.

I am also getting pretty tired of this being reported as an example of the rampant white on black crime/homicides in our society. Locally we have had several groups meet and discuss the (non) issue of racial homicides against black youth. This theory does not stand up to reallity. Checking homicide statistics show that Blacks accounted for 93% of the assailant in black victim homicides. Blacks also accounted for 17% of white victim homicides (2005). This trend has been more or less consistent for the last 30 years. Overall, homicides tend to not be interracial. Most are black on black or white on white. Of all homicides in 2005, white on black only accounted for 3.2%, with black on white accounting for 8.8%, black on black at 42.2%, and white on white at 44.6%. Again, more or less consistent for the last 30 years. The media is spewing a fallacy.

- DOJ (BOJS) bjs.oij.usdoj.gov

Originally Posted by XavierD

The media is spewing a fallacy.

I'd say more like a spewing Phallic in many cases.

Originally Posted by XavierD

I don't see anything wrong with going up and asking them what they are doing.

And if the confrontation goes badly you can always shoot 'em?

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

And if the confrontation goes badly you can always shoot 'em?

I apply that to just about every 'confrontation' I have with someone. If they violently attack me or someone I am with, I will kill them.

Originally Posted by XavierD

Meh, not sure when we all became jurors on this case.

Anyone else not have a problem with profiling an unknown young adult black male wearing a hoody with the hood up, walking in a neighborhood that has had a recent history of break-ins? Seems like common sense to me. I don't see anything wrong with going up and asking them what they are doing.

I wonder what percentage of crime is caused by young black males?

In other news, four hoodie wearing adults brutily attacked and robbed a young man in Tampa.

I am also getting pretty tired of this being reported as an example of the rampant white on black crime/homicides in our society. Locally we have had several groups meet and discuss the (non) issue of racial homicides against black youth. This theory does not stand up to reallity. Checking homicide statistics show that Blacks accounted for 93% of the assailant in black victim homicides. Blacks also accounted for 17% of white victim homicides (2005). This trend has been more or less consistent for the last 30 years. Overall, homicides tend to not be interracial. Most are black on black or white on white. Of all homicides in 2005, white on black only accounted for 3.2%, with black on white accounting for 8.8%, black on black at 42.2%, and white on white at 44.6%. Again, more or less consistent for the last 30 years. The media is spewing a fallacy.

- DOJ (BOJS) bjs.oij.usdoj.gov

You realize that you are contradicting yourself? You say it's not a big deal to profile black folks in a neighborhood because there have been break-in's. These break in's are assumed to be from black folk in a predominantly non-African American neighborhood. So you say this case of a white person profiling a black person is ok because there's been history of alleged thefts, i.e. black on non-African American crime. In this case, the result of that profiling is that the encounter that ensued caused a white guy killed a black guy. Then you say white on black crime is not an issue because of the infrequency of such events. Well it can't be both ways for your arguement to make sense. You can systematically profile people because, in your opinion there's been a rash of black on white crime and this is a common sense approach to preventing those crimes...but then you say race has nothing to do with the killing of TM becasue you've found statistics that show white on black crime is low. Makes no sense.

OSECS, since you're a father you might see where I'm coming from on this. If my son is profiled as "suspicious" because of his race while doing nothing wrong and only for walking through a neighborhood, then confronted, shot and killed I would be looking for justice. I would hope that my son would stand up for himself against the person profiling him, and standing up for oneself in this case shouldn't result in being killed. So if we think about this from the perspective of our kid being killed I think it changes the perspective a bit.

Originally Posted by XavierD

I apply that to just about every 'confrontation' I have with someone. If they violently attack me or someone I am with, I will kill them.

Maybe that was also Trayvon's policy?

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Maybe that was also Trayvon's policy?

Yeah everything points seems to point in that direction....

Originally Posted by whatcomridaz

Yeah everything points seems to point in that direction....

Interesting, so you think TM also was applying the "stand your ground" law? Felt like GZ might kill him so tried to incapacitate him before getting shot. That's one possibility I suppose. Still, GZ profiled him and instigated the confrentation by following TM.

Originally Posted by whatcomridaz

Yeah everything points seems to point in that direction....

I knew we'd swing you round to a more nuanced position.

NO that was sarcasm.

I'm not sure I think the stand your ground law even applies any more in this case. Looks like its turning into plain old self-defense.

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

Interesting, so you think TM also was applying the "stand your ground" law? Felt like GZ might kill him so tried to incapacitate him before getting shot. That's one possibility I suppose. Still, GZ profiled him and instigated the confrentation by following TM.

Originally Posted by whatcomridaz

Looks like its turning into plain old self-defense.

Is this still sarcasm?