Thread: One thing I don't get about this Zimmerman/Martin thing

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

The non-skiing cunts seem to fall (un)smartly into one side of this argument though? DBT, Ruby, JER, ILC etc.

"My side" of this issue is the belief that everyone rushed to judgment based on inaccurate reporting and the truth is very different than the initial image created by the media when this story first broke.

What part of this do you find to be troublesome? Better yet, what part of this do you disagree with?

Originally Posted by Jer

And the prosecuting attourneys. Going for murder 2 may make some people feel good now, but they're not gonna feel so good when they find out the prosecution has a super-ultra-mega weak case.

Did they really ONLY charge him with Murder 2 or did they back it up with other lesser charges the jury could ffind him guilty of? It's pretty typical to be charged with lesser charges so that if the jury doesn't think they proved murder 2, they can still find him guilty of something lesser without having to retry him.

Originally Posted by Rubicon

"My side" of this issue is the belief that everyone rushed to judgment based on inaccurate reporting and the truth is very different than the initial image created by the media when this story first broke.

What part of this do you find to be troublesome? Better yet, what part of this do you disagree with?

silly silly man, why of course Zimmerman is the white el diablo (a nod to his hispanic heritage) portrayed by the national media. they wouldn't lie to us now would they ? (SEE: Dan Rather).

I totally jumped on board with the original story and believed it based on reports coming from Florida then the national "edits" helped fill in the dark spots. The truth we're seeming to find, is somewhere in the middle of the whole fucked up mess.

Originally Posted by The AD

My feeling is it's going to be difficult to convict Zimmerman. He's the only living person who saw what really transpired that night. Basically it's going to come down to the prosecution attempting to "prove" there's no way Zimmerman could have felt he was in grievous danger against Zimmerman's claim that he was. Whatever happens, though, Zimmerman has to live the rest of his life knowing he gunned down an unarmed teenager.

I agree, it will be difficult to convict him. If he ends up being found "not guilty" of murder 2, does that make what he did right?

Originally Posted by Rubicon

Better yet, what part of this do you disagree with?

The part where Zimmerman was apparently

someone trying to make his world a better place.....

...and that the person stating it felt able to make the statement.

Since it requires at least as much (or maybe even more) imagination or spin or rush as the opposite view does....

Originally Posted by OSECS

silly silly man, why of course Zimmerman is the white el diablo (a nod to his hispanic heritage) portrayed by the national media. they wouldn't lie to us now would they ? (SEE: Dan Rather).

I totally jumped on board with the original story and believed it based on reports coming from Florida then the national "edits" helped fill in the dark spots. The truth we're seeming to find, is somewhere in the middle of the whole fucked up mess.

It stands to reason that the story that George first stalked and then murdered a seventeen-year old kid in cold blood would be followed by a different account of events that night from Zimmerman's side.

What seems odd is that upon being made aware of Zimmerman's account many were unable to put themselves in that kid's place and imagine what it must have been like to be followed at night, then confronted, and then tragically choosing to defend yourself. Somehow Trayvon is a less sympathetic victim because the media messed up? Wasn't the story always based in part on Zimmerman's Stand Your Ground defense?

I'm somewhere between Zimmy who? and I don't give a shit anymore. I won't be surprised if this doesn't go to trial.

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

The part where Zimmerman was apparently



...and that the person stating it felt able to make the statement.

Since it requires at least as much (or maybe even more) imagination or spin or rush as the opposite view does....

Nonsense. You carelessly lumped me in with everyone else with whom you disagree and are now trying to save face.

It takes no imagination or spin to look at someone who tutors disadvantaged students on the weekend for free, speaks out and tries to rally the community to demand justice for a homeless man who was beaten, and works with the neighborhood watch, and conclude he is trying to make the world a better place.

To say that to come to this conclusion one must apply the same level of "spin and rush" as is necessary to look at the evidence and conclude that he is an angry, racist vigilante looking to kill a black guy, is just silly.

Originally Posted by Rubicon

You carelessly

Nope. Not at all.

And I think Triage sums up the situation well, as usual.

Originally Posted by Triage

What seems odd is that upon being made aware of Zimmerman's account many were unable to put themselves in that kid's place and imagine what it must have been like to be followed at night, then confronted, and then tragically choosing to defend yourself.

But the defense part, I think, is where the disconnect occurs for most people. When they insert themselves into Tv's role in this drama, no matter what twists and turns the conversation may take, they never envision a scenario where they end up on top of the neighborhood watch captain trying to kill him.

Most people have a hard time understanding how one gets from 'being approached by the neighborhood watch captain late at night' to 'pounding the neighborhood watch captain's head into the pavement after breaking his nose'. So they have a hard time mustering any sympathy for Tv.

Originally Posted by Rubicon

So they have a hard time mustering any sympathy for Tv.

Most people

They have?

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Nope. Not at all.

So it was intentional? How very 'Pat Robertson' of you.

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

They have?

You disagree?

Originally Posted by Rubicon

But the defense part, I think, is where the disconnect occurs for most people. When they insert themselves into Tv's role in this drama, no matter what twists and turns the conversation may take, they never envision a scenario where they end up on top of the neighborhood watch captain trying to kill him.

Most people have a hard time understanding how one gets from 'being approached by the neighborhood watch captain late at night' to 'pounding the neighborhood watch captain's head into the pavement after breaking his nose'. So they have a hard time mustering any sympathy for Tv.

This assumes Zimmy's account is the correct account. The deceased is silent due to being dead, so we can't hear that side.

Even if we sympathize entirely with Zimmerman's account, it doesn't explain why he ignored the 911 operator and thus police instruction to stay in his car and end his pursuit. Had he merely followed those instructions this wouldn't even been news.

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

This assumes Zimmy's account is the correct account. The deceased is silent due to being dead, so we can't hear that side.

Even if we sympathize entirely with Zimmerman's account, it doesn't explain why he ignored the 911 operator and thus police instruction to stay in his car and end his pursuit. Had he merely followed those instructions this wouldn't even been news.

Stop being pedantic....

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

This assumes Zimmy's account is the correct account. The deceased is silent due to being dead, so we can't hear that side.

The meta argument over the idea that Trayvon wasn't quite as sympathetic as he was first portrayed seems to be a big part of the outrage over the media role in this story but the fact is people are shot and killed all the time under tragic indeterminate circumstances and the notion that the police & courts don't have to do their jobs and speak for the deceased when the victim is less-than-sympathetic is something that will continue even after this particular story is forgotten.

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

This assumes Zimmy's account is the correct account. The deceased is silent due to being dead, so we can't hear that side.

Even if we sympathize entirely with Zimmerman's account, it doesn't explain why he ignored the 911 operator and thus police instruction to stay in his car and end his pursuit. Had he merely followed those instructions this wouldn't even been news.

I think you need to hunt down and listen to the entire 911 call. Your recounting seems to be missing a few salient points.

Originally Posted by Rubicon

Your recounting seems to be missing a few salient points.

Go on, tell us, you know you want to....

Originally Posted by Triage

It stands to reason that the story that George first stalked and then murdered a seventeen-year old kid in cold blood would be followed by a different account of events that night from Zimmerman's side.

What seems odd is that upon being made aware of Zimmerman's account many were unable to put themselves in that kid's place and imagine what it must have been like to be followed at night, then confronted, and then tragically choosing to defend yourself. Somehow Trayvon is a less sympathetic victim because the media messed up? Wasn't the story always based in part on Zimmerman's Stand Your Ground defense?

Not even taking Zimmermans account into the situation (other than the wounds he did receive which don't mean he didn't cause the whole situation to go down). The story from the press turned out to be different from what was reported, the editing of audio tapes, the exclusion of scene of the crime facts, the exclusion of details surrounding the police actions. Many details that could be left out that would make the reporting unbiased and non leading were in several instances.

The national media made this situation far worse than it was. This wasn't a racially motivated hate crime (apparently) as many tried to paint .

So yeah Zimmermarns account varies, but the facts speak for themselves about the incident and what was and what wasn't reported.

Originally Posted by OSECS

Not even taking Zimmermans account into the situation (other than the wounds he did receive which don't mean he didn't cause the whole situation to go down). The story from the press turned out to be different from what was reported, the editing of audio tapes, the exclusion of scene of the crime facts, the exclusion of details surrounding the police actions. Many details that could be left out that would make the reporting unbiased and non leading were in several instances.

You keep beating this drum but neglect to mention that the media also corrected the record as time went on (the favorable Zimmerman background story was done by Reuters) and ignore that a lot the things you've mentioned only became known as result of media scrutiny. It seems to me that we are past the point of being shocked by the failure of "unfailing media accuracy."

Originally Posted by OSECS

The national media made this situation far worse than it was. This wasn't a racially motivated hate crime (apparently) as many tried to paint.

Worse? The argument over the idea that Trayvon wasn't quite as sympathetic as he was first portrayed seems to be a big part of the outrage over the medias role in this story but the fact is people are shot and killed all the time under tragic indeterminate circumstances and the notion that the police & courts don't have to do their jobs and speak for the deceased when the victim is less-than-sympathetic is something that will continue even after this particular story is forgotten.

Originally Posted by Triage

You keep beating this drum but neglect to mention the fact that the media also corrected the record as time went on (the favorable Zimmerman background story was done by Reuters) and ignore the fact that a lot the things you've mentioned only became known as result of media scrutiny. It seems to me that we are past the point where unfailing media accuracy is to be expected.

Sure, but: The meta argument over the idea that Trayvon wasn't quite as sympathetic as he was first portrayed seems to be a big part of the outrage over the media role in this story but the fact is people are shot and killed all the time under tragic indeterminate circumstances and the notion that
the police & courts don't have to do their jobs and speak for the deceased when the victim is less-than-sympathetic is something that will continue even after this particular story is forgotten.

The media didn't correct the facts till the cat was well out of the bag, the cloud of cover up,
racially motivated acts against a 12 year old kid, and guns all were a feeding frenzy for the media.

So it's OK for a media outlet to just write a story how they see fit, leave out key pieces of evidence, make claims of bias and preferential treatment, then when things prove to very different
alter their story and that makes it OK ?

There was enough of a story about this idiot without having to make the story something very different from the way it went down . Funny how all the facts in the story that would have made
people step back just a little before coming to a conclusion were omitted, how a tape was edited that changed the perception of the entire conversation with a dispatcher.

No sorry man the local media decided what the truth was and what facts we should see to back up that truth, and the national media ate with a spoon.

Getting the facts straight the first time should have been very easy to do, but that wouldn't sell papers like murder, 12 year old football pictures, guns, racism and white hispanics.

Originally Posted by OSECS

Getting the facts straight the first time should have been very easy to do, but that wouldn't sell papers like murder, 12 year old football pictures, guns, racism and white hispanics.

Sadly, it's true, the appearance of police failing to do their jobs—remember, the story the police told Trayvon's parents turned out to be incorrect—does not capture national attention when the victim is unattractive or does not appear to be sympathetic. But since all Martin was doing was walking home, some people, some parents perhaps, could imagine this happening to their kid.

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Go on, tell us, you know you want to....

No, I really don't.

If you or Adolf want to be conversant on the subject matter you need to educate yourself. I have neither the time nor the inclination to help you with this task.

Originally Posted by Triage

Sadly, it's true, the appearance of police failing to do their jobs does not capture national attention when the victim is unattractive or does not appear to be sympathetic. But since all Martin was doing was walking home, some people, some parents perhaps, could imagine this happening to their kid.

Nope, they did their job (I don't know how thoroughly). But these are the things they dis do that were omitted from the story being reported, they questioned him for hours, they took him into custody, the lead investigator wanted to charge him. All of these verifiable facts were left out of the
story.

The DA didn't want to prosecute because of lack of evidence apparently. I have no idea what want down, and if they can piece enough evidence together that proves Zimmerman killed this kid in cold blood then he deserves whatever he gets.

The things the PD got wrong point that shit out, shout it out, but making up or omitting key facts ? The source loses all credibility.

But giving the media a pass cause they got it right eventually ? is that what you think passes for responsible journalism, or just journalism that suits your needs ?

Originally Posted by OSECS

But giving the media a pass cause they got it right eventually ? is that what you think passes for responsible journalism, or just journalism that suits your needs ?

Who's giving the media a pass? I've been critical of both sides while you've first feigned ignorance and then chose to downplay the right leaning media's role in smearing Trayvon.

Originally Posted by Rubicon

No, I really don't.

If you or Adolf want to be conversant on the subject matter you need to educate yourself. I have neither the time nor the inclination to help you with this task.

I have read the transcripts previously and re-read them again today... I'd just like you to point out the inaccuracies as you see them. Since you mentioned it and everything.

My betting is semantics.... based on the "we don't need you to"