Thread: One thing I don't get about this Zimmerman/Martin thing

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

of course not. that's absurd just as my example was. my point it that following does not automatically raise the threat level to life threatening or bodily harm.


but in this case he had a choice. instead of continuing in a straight line to home, he doubled back to confront zimmerman.

Your example was absurd and there's no evidence so far that Martin doubled back. According to Martin's girlfriend, Martin ran around the corner and then stopped.

According to Zimmerman's testimony, he continued walking straight through the cut through to the next street over and then was walking back through the cut through when the two met.

Zimmerman says Martin initiated the confrontation while reports state that Martin's girlfriend overheard Zimmerman initiate the confrontation saying it sounded like Martin's bluetooth earpiece was knocked out when Zimmerman grabbed him after asking what he was doing in the neighborhood. There's also 2-3 minutes unaccounted for before the neighbors report the screaming started after Zimmerman hung up with the dispatcher in what would have otherwise been a short walk back to his SUV.



Zimmerman also says that he was so panicked and afraid of Martin that he rolled up his window out of fear when Martin approached him. That might have been a good time for Zimmerman to announce his intentions, instead.

Regardless, Detective Serino makes the point during their interview that engaging in an armed chase at night of a suspect thought to be so threatening it necessitated calling the police doesn't add up.

Yet, after Mr. Martin ran away, Mr. Zimmerman said, he got out of the car and followed to see what street the teenager fled down. Mr. Zimmerman said he wanted to be precise.

“So you basically jumped out of the car to see where he was going,” Mr. Serino said. “That’s not fear. You know what I mean. That’s one of the problems I have with the whole thing.”

Originally Posted by The AD

I guess with hindsight 20/20 it was a poor decision, but I'd say "the most stupid thing possible" is a hell of an overstatement. You say this almost like Trayvon deserved to get shot.

there are a lot of folks who think he deserved it and i'd bet a fair number on this board are among them. a lot of folks who arm themselves to the gills because they're skeered of the bogeyman manufacture reasons to justify it.

Originally Posted by Triage

Or that making eye contact is roughly equivalent with stalking someone for some distance first in a SUV and then getting out of the SUV, shutting the lights off, and continuing the pursuit on foot in the rain after being told a pursuit is unnecessary and then confronting that person (according to Martin's girlfriend Zimmerman initiated the confrontation).

both are absurd in this case because martin had reasonable means of escape. (see above)

deedee's testimony is suspect. she didn't even come forward voluntarily with the information. you would think that if your boyfriend was murdered while you were on the phone that you would say something? she didn't come forward until Crump called her from martin's cell phone records. what do you think the possibility is that Crump coached her testimony before she talked to the police?

Originally Posted by Triage

The notion that Martin should have run has been established repeatedly throughout this thread while at the same time some douche insists that Zimmerman did nothing wrong. In addition to the video, the interrogation tapes are also available online which provide some insight into why the lead investigator thought Zimmerman should be charged because the more likely explanation is that there are elements of truth and lies in Zimmerman's story.

you don't think that the unrelenting public pressure from the race baiters and media influenced the charges? not that he shouldn't have been charged in the first place. i do believe that zimmerman should have been charged, probably with manslaughter. but 2nd degree murder? not a chance. zimmerman will walk on that charge.

Originally Posted by Triage

Zimmerman's written and verbal statements also refer to Martin as the "suspect" but Chris Serino, the Sanford Police Department\\\'s lead investigator on the case, is heard in one of the recordings repeatedly warning Mr. Zimmerman that public opinion, already tilting against the crime watch volunteer, would pillory him unless he could explain exactly why he felt justified in pulling the trigger at a "kid with a future."

zimmerman's story reconciles with the police call tapes and the witness testimonies. if he could spin a story like that before even hearing of the witnesses, then he must be psychic.

Originally Posted by Triage

Mr. Martin was no thug, Mr. Serino told Mr. Zimmerman: He was an athlete. His parents cared about him. He had no violent history, and he was armed with only a pack of candy and a bottle of iced tea.

"This 17-year-old boy was one of those kids who would have been a success story," Mr. Serino said. "Everybody wants to know what sets him off. He's not on PCP. He's not on anything. He's on Skittles."

i wonder if Mr Serino has the same view of Mr NO_LIMIT_NIGGAZ now that we know a few things about him?

Originally Posted by Triage

Also, FWIW, the autopsy report lists Martin's height and weight at 5'11" and 158 lbs, not the 6'2" - 6'3" that has been posted in this thread.

and zimmerman was not 250lbs. in fact, they were about only 15lbs difference, iirc*, which destroys the early media meme of the small innocent boy vs the big scary man and easily sets up the possibility that martin would jump zimmerman.

*it's hard to remember a lot of facts since the mass mindrape media lied and distorted this story as it gained traction. we didn't have a clear picture of the story until months after it occurred and was tried in the court of public opinion, based on wrong information.

Originally Posted by Triage

Also, FWIW, the autopsy report lists Martin's height and weight at 5'11" and 158 lbs, not the 6'2" - 6'3" that has been posted in this thread.

yes, but these are white folks talking about a black kid who got shot. you know how it is.

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

both are absurd in this case because martin had reasonable means of escape. (see above)

so he needed to "escape," huh?

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

deedee's testimony is suspect. she didn't even come forward voluntarily with the information. you would think that if your boyfriend was murdered while you were on the phone that you would say something? she didn't come forward until Crump called her from martin's cell phone records. what do you think the possibility is that Crump coached her testimony before she talked to the police?

you seem very suspicious and yet apparently aren't willing to consider very normal reactions to something like this, and that's without even considering age and the racial implications that would likely make fear an even more reasonable response.

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

i wonder if Mr Serino has the same view of Mr NO_LIMIT_NIGGAZ now that we know a few things about him?

i wonder if you'd be asking the same question if the kid was white.

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

and zimmerman was not 250lbs. in fact, they were about only 15lbs difference, iirc*, which destroys the early media meme of the small innocent boy vs the big scary man and easily sets up the possibility that martin would jump zimmerman.

*it's hard to remember a lot of facts since the mass mindrape media lied and distorted this story as it gained traction. we didn't have a clear picture of the story until months after it occurred and was tried in the court of public opinion, based on wrong information.

except one was a kid and one was a man with a gun pursuing him. i wonder if you'd be making the same argument if zimmerman was black. i wonder if you'd even notice the story.

Originally Posted by Triage

Your example was absurd and there's no evidence so far that Martin doubled back. According to Martin's girlfriend, Martin ran around the corner and then stopped.

get a map an look at where martin's house is in relation to the place of attack. martin had to double back to meet zimmerman. once the police told zimmerman to stop following, he did; he then walked straight across the other street to get the street name and an address. as he was coming back, no longer following, he got jumped.

Originally Posted by Triage

According to Zimmerman's testimony, he continued walking straight through the cut through to the next street over and then was walking back through the cut through when the two met.

Zimmerman says Martin initiated the confrontation while reports state that Martin's girlfriend overheard Zimmerman initiate the confrontation saying it sounded like Martin's bluetooth earpiece was knocked out when Zimmerman grabbed him after asking what he was doing in the neighborhood. There's also 2-3 minutes unaccounted for before the neighbors report the screaming started after Zimmerman hung up with the dispatcher in what would have otherwise been a short walk back to his SUV.

deedee's testimony is suspect. as for the unaccounted minutes, could be that he was looking for the street sign for the address

Originally Posted by Triage

Zimmerman also says that he was so panicked and afraid of Martin that he rolled up his window out of fear when Martin approached him. That might have been a good time for Zimmerman to announce his intentions, instead.

Regardless, Detective Serino makes the point during their interview that engaging in an armed chase at night of a suspect thought to be so threatening it necessitated calling the police doesn't add up.

Yet, after Mr. Martin ran away, Mr. Zimmerman said, he got out of the car and followed to see what street the teenager fled down. Mr. Zimmerman said he wanted to be precise.

“So you basically jumped out of the car to see where he was going,” Mr. Serino said. “That’s not fear. You know what I mean. That’s one of the problems I have with the whole thing.”

i don't see it as an "armed chase". at no time did zimmerman sound out of breath. he was following at a distance to keep an eye on where martin was going.

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

Zimmerman's story reconciles with the police call tapes and the witness testimonies. if he could spin a story like that before even hearing of the witnesses, then he must be psychic.

i wonder if Mr Serino has the same view of Mr NO_LIMIT_NIGGAZ now that we know a few things about him?

There are plenty of discrepancies in Zimmerman's account. Even in his own retelling he admits to having a bad memory for certain details.

As for the seamier elements of those pushing the anti-Martin narrative, you say that manslaughter charges are a better fit, so the meta argument over the idea that Trayvon wasn't quite as sympathetic as he was first portrayed seems to be a big part of the outrage over the media role in this story but the fact is people are shot and killed all the time under tragic indeterminate circumstances and the notion that the police & courts don't have to do their jobs and speak for the deceased when the victim is less-than-sympathetic is something that will continue even after this particular story is forgotten so a big part of it is the outrage over the DA initially refusing to press any charges.

Originally Posted by spook

so he needed to "escape," huh?

only in the sense that martin did have to show that he couldn't escape (another word for remove himself from the situation) before invoking stand your ground.

Originally Posted by spook

you seem very suspicious and yet apparently aren't willing to consider very normal reactions to something like this, and that's without even considering age and the racial implications that would likely make fear an even more reasonable response.



i wonder if you'd be asking the same question if the kid was white.



except one was a kid and one was a man with a gun pursuing him. i wonder if you'd be making the same argument if zimmerman was black. i wonder if you'd even notice the story.

i wouldn't have noticed the story because the media would not have not reported it and reported it as inaccurately in martin's favor. i only have interest in this case due to the pure propaganda coming out of all the mainstream media. i find it telling that those who favor zimmerman's guilt aren't bothered by this.

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

get a map an look at where martin's house is in relation to the place of attack. martin had to double back to meet zimmerman. once the police told zimmerman to stop following, he did; he then walked straight across the other street to get the street name and an address. as he was coming back, no longer following, he got jumped.

This has already been covered ad nauseum so maybe you should get a map or try reading this thread before reiterating the same talking points because your bias is showing if can't see there are more than just one possible sequence of events.

When it comes to the street name, Serino is dubious about Zimmermans inability to remember one of three major streets in a community he patrols regularly.

Zimmerman mentions that he had received a diagnosis of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder as a child and takes 20 milligrams of Adderall twice a day. He cites his disorder as one reason he could not remember one of three major streets in his community when he called the police.

“To be honest with you, I have a bad memory anyway,” he told Mr. Serino.

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

only in the sense that martin did have to show that he couldn't escape (another word for remove himself from the situation) before invoking stand your ground.

was he supposed to go home while was being followed by a strange man?

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

i wouldn't have noticed the story because the media would not have not reported it and reported it as inaccurately in martin's favor. i only have interest in this case due to the pure propaganda coming out of all the mainstream media. i find it telling that those who favor zimmerman's guilt aren't bothered by this.

seems like you're not bothered by the propaganda in favor of zimmerman despite his clear and repeated dishonesty.

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

only in the sense that martin did have to show that he couldn't escape (another word for remove himself from the situation) before invoking stand your ground.

How can you not see the absurd double standard you are applying here?

Originally Posted by Triage

This has already been covered ad nauseum so maybe you should get a map or try reading this thread before reiterating the same talking points because your bias is showing if can't see there are more than just one possible sequence of events.

what are the other possible sequence of events that are being considered as probable?

Originally Posted by Triage

When it comes to the street name, Serino is dubious about Zimmermans inability to remember one of three major streets in a community he patrols regularly.

Zimmerman mentions that he had received a diagnosis of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder as a child and takes 20 milligrams of Adderall twice a day. He cites his disorder as one reason he could not remember one of three major streets in his community when he called the police.

“To be honest with you, I have a bad memory anyway,” he told Mr. Serino.

fair point. i'll give him fair suspect on that one.

Originally Posted by spook

was he supposed to go home while was being followed by a strange man?

or run away. do you not think that martin, a 17 year old football player, could not outrun him?

Originally Posted by spook

seems like you're not bothered by the propaganda in favor of zimmerman despite his clear and repeated dishonesty.

what propaganda in favor of zimmerman? i've never seen the NYT, CNN, MSNBC, et al publish anything in his favor.

Originally Posted by Powow

How can you not see the absurd double standard you are applying here?

no i don't. was zimmerman supposed to do something different when he was being beaten skull bashed by martin?

if i was being followed by some strange man at night and i was close to home i certainly would not go home because i wouldn't want strange man knowing where i live and perhaps endangering the rest of my family.

Originally Posted by spook

if i was being followed by some strange man at night and i was close to home i certainly would invite his ass in for some funky butt loving

...........

here's a good summary and pretty much is my conclusion thus far. from a lefty site too...

A variation is not a difference. It is not a significant dissimilarity. How do these experts tell whether something is a variation or a difference? That's subjective, up to the examiner. (And why handwriting analysis is not considered science -- it's too subjective.)

Here, since we're dealing in the court of public opinion and with opinion not science, we can all be like document examiners.

There may be many variations in George Zimmerman's multiple accounts, but which, if any, amount to a significant dissimilarity that rises to a difference over a variation, and warrants someone concluding the essential elements of his version are not true?

My opinion: This is self-defense. Zimmerman was not the aggressor, he did nothing to provoke Trayvon Martin’s beating him, breaking his nose and slamming his head into concrete. He had every right to respond with deadly force to stop Trayvon’s physical attack on him and to prevent Trayvon from getting control of his weapon.

read the whole thing. too long to quote.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/22/143156/459

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

no i don't. was zimmerman supposed to do something different when he was being beaten skull bashed by martin?

The fuck is wrong with you? You are cluttering this thread up with dozens of posts about all the options that Martin had to avoid this situation, but Zimmerman had no choice right up until they got in a fight? You are a god damn retard.

Originally Posted by Powow

The fuck is wrong with you? You are cluttering this thread up with dozens of posts about all the options that Martin had to avoid this situation, but Zimmerman had no choice right up until they got in a fight? You are a god damn retard.

It's the guns fault. It egged Zimmerman on, it gave him a false sense of security, it whispered go ahead, follow him I got yet back..........

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

what are the other possible sequence of events that are being considered as probable?

what propaganda in favor of zimmerman? i've never seen the NYT, CNN, MSNBC, et al publish anything in his favor.

This has all been covered in this thread already (including your preferred version) so here's just one scenario that also fits the evidence.

Zimmerman continues searching for Martin on the cut through toward Retreat View Circle searching for the "suspect", and when he didn't see the "suspect", Zimmerman doubled back to the T, which was the other obvious pathway the "suspect" might have ran which is also route to Martin's house.

At the same time, Martin, who knows he was being pursued is agitated and confused has stopped on the walking path of the T leading to Martin's house to figure out what is happening. Zimmerman first runs past the walking path but then comes back and turns the corner down the walking path flashlight in hand which matches up with where the flashlight is found on the crime scene.

The point being, events could have unfolded the way Zimmerman portrays them or Zimmerman could be using the search for a street sign as cover for continuing his pursuit of Martin.



As for the media. There have been many stories sympathetic to Zimmerman as well as many unsympathetic ones. It's more accurate to describe the media as reacting to the story by trying to scoop the competition as new information becomes available. In fact, the original sources of the stories with evidence favorable to Zimmerman often times comes from the same sources you say have "never" published anything in his favor and is then repackaged by sites that claim to have the "real" story that the media never tells.

I can't believe you dingleberries are still argueing about this shit. Man - this happened months ago! Don't you guys watch the news? Arizona ia being occupied by Nazis! There's a thunderstorn bearing down on Florida! Some guy guns down some other guy - big deal.

Originally Posted by OSECS

It's the guns fault. It egged Zimmerman on, it gave him a false sense of security, it whispered go ahead, follow him I got yet back..........

It must have been Sweetness:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-col...ds---sweetness

Originally Posted by Jer

I can't believe you dingleberries are still argueing about this shit. Man - this happened months ago! Don't you guys watch the news? Arizona ia being occupied by Nazis! There's a thunderstorn bearing down on Florida! Some guy guns down some other guy - big deal.

but it's fun getting these tools worked up!

Originally Posted by Powow

The fuck is wrong with you? You are cluttering this thread up with dozens of posts about all the options that Martin had to avoid this situation, but Zimmerman had no choice right up until they got in a fight? You are a god damn retard.

zimmerman had lots of choices. and every choice he made was lawful. martin had lots of choices too. and he was the one to choose the unlawful one.

Originally Posted by Triage

This has all been covered in this thread already (including your preferred version) so here's just one scenario that also fits the evidence.

Zimmerman continues searching for Martin on the cut through toward Retreat View Circle searching for the "suspect", and when he didn't see the "suspect", Zimmerman doubled back to the T, which was the other obvious pathway the "suspect" might have ran which is also route to Martin's house.

At the same time, Martin, who knows he was being pursued is agitated and confused has stopped on the walking path of the T leading to Martin's house to figure out what is happening. Zimmerman first runs past the walking path but then comes back and turns the corner down the walking path flashlight in hand which matches up with where the flashlight is found on the crime scene.

The point being, events could have unfolded the way Zimmerman portrays them or Zimmerman could be using the search for a street sign as cover for continuing his pursuit of Martin.

there was never any indication that zimmerman was running while on the phone. to suggest that after he told NEN that he was not following anymore that he started running around the neighborhood is pure speculation. there is no evidence of that.

what is more likely, is that after zimmerman hung up with NEN, that martin spotted him in the distance and decided to come after him. martin was at his father's house already (according to deedee) and decided to go back. perhaps they had words over a large distance as martin (and/or zimmerman) closed the gap. the gap closed and martin sucker punched zimmerman and the scuffle ensued.

emphasis: martin was already at his house. it could have ended right there.

i'll stick with the talkleft narrative. it's heartening to know that some liberals actually have brains!

Originally Posted by Triage

As for the media. There have been many stories sympathetic to Zimmerman as well as many unsympathetic ones. It's more accurate to describe the media as reacting to the story by trying to scoop the competition as new information becomes available. In fact, the original sources of the stories with evidence favorable to Zimmerman often times comes from the same sources you say have "never" published anything in his favor and is then repackaged by sites that claim to have the "real" story that the media never tells.

so the careful selective editing of the phone call was just trying to scoop the competition huh? you sure like to give the media a free pass when it's journalistic integrity is slowly circling the drain. the point is that the media basically reported pure bias for martin for the first few weeks of this story. that bullshit permeated public opinion and is still a source of disinformation today. once you get a public mindset going, it's nearly impossible to change it after the fact. especially from the vast majority of trayvon supporters who only get their news from 6:30 - 7:00 every night.

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

there was never any indication that zimmerman was running while on the phone. to suggest that after he told NEN that he was not following anymore that he started running around the neighborhood is pure speculation. there is no evidence of that.

Originally Posted by Ripzalot

so the careful selective editing of the phone call was just trying to scoop the competition huh? you sure like to give the media a free pass when it's journalistic integrity is slowly circling the drain.

Seriously try looking at a map. You may like the talk left point of view but clearly you don't understand it because according to Zimmerman he doubled back to the T which corresponds with the evidence when you asked, "what are the other possible sequence of events that are being considered as probable" which has nothing to do with, "running around the neighborhood."

So now you want to move the goal post and create yet another scenario that accepts Dee Dee's testimony when before you said it was unreliable. Your bias only allows you to see what you want to see. In contrast, I've made many of the same points by your talk left source owing to the fact that there is equivocal evidence whereas you and many others say there is only one possible sequence of events in spite of the fact that the state has yet to make its case.



And nobody is giving the the media a free pass. Like everything else you've recently posted, this has already been discussed in this thread. Feel free to go back and read it for yourself.

Regardless, you wrote that you've "never" seen anything published in Zimmerman's favor from your list of media sources when clearly that's absurd because, "stories with evidence favorable to Zimmerman often times comes from the same sources you say have "never" published anything in his favor and is then repackaged by sites that claim to have the "real" story that the media never tells."

Originally Posted by Triage

Seriously try looking at a map. You may like the talk left point of view but clearly you don't understand it because according to Zimmerman he doubled back to the T which corresponds with the evidence when you asked, "what are the other possible sequence of events that are being considered as probable."

i just wanted to know what YOU thought was possible/probable. sorry but i aint gonna read thru 22 pages of crap here. i will read a carefully thought out article such as talkleft. if you want to point me to one that fits your preferred narrative (emphasis added), please do.

Originally Posted by Triage

So now you want to move the goal post and create yet another scenario the accepts Dee Dee's testimony when before you said it was unreliable. Your bias only allows you to see what you want to see.

no, i was throwing YOU a bone with that deedee quote. do you accept deedee's testimony that martin was at his father's house and then doubled back to confront zimmerman? he. was. home. safe.

Originally Posted by Triage

Nobody is giving the the media a free pass. Like everything else you've recently posted, this has already been discussed in this thread. Feel free to go back and read it for yourself.

Regardless, you wrote that you've "never" seen anything published in Zimmerman's favor from your list of media sources when clearly that's absurd because, "tories with evidence favorable to Zimmerman often times comes from the same sources you say have "never" published anything in his favor and is then repackaged by sites that claim to have the "real" story that the media never tells."

i haven't seen any pro-zimmerman stories. sorry. it's true. but then again i don't sit around reading every article on the internet about it, apparently like you do.