who has car payments?

[GeezerSteve]

As iceman said- anything beyond getting you from point A to B is "want," and there's nothing wrong with that. I like a car that's fun to drive.

Agree about needs and wants. But the consumer debt slavemasters (banks, credit card companies) and their henchmen (ad men, marketers) do all they can to persuade us that we "need" lots of stuff that are mere wants and that we ought to go into debt (and thus mortgage our future freedom) to buy those phony "needed" things.

Virtually all of us want to drive a nice fun car. Duh. This thread is not about that. This thread is about car payments, a subspecies of consumer debt. In many cases the decision of whether or not take on car payments (or to take on a car payment which is higher than necessary) is about putting one's future security and freedom at risk by taking on debt to buy a rapidly depreciating asset he does not need. Consumer debt is indeed America's modern slavery. I see it all around me. Fucking tragic.

Re buying an old MB, it actually made sense 15 or 20 years ago. An old 240D in good mechanical shape was a good bet as a vehicle which would be cheap to maintain. Starting around 1990 or so MB went from having the most reliable cars on the road to a car to having really shitty repair and reliability records.

[hutash]

Seems like a good place to post this.

I just bought a '94 MB E320 in pristine condition for $4,500 (yes I paid cash, so I can claim I need it not want it)





Shitty pictures, but all I have at the moment.

'94 was the last year MBs were made by engineers, and not accountants. After that they had to build the car to fit the budget, not budget the car to fit the engineering. So yes, that is when MBs started to have issues. Some think this is the best car MB ever built, and judging by the number of taxi cars around the world still, I would tend to agree.

Sweet ride at any rate, and the two issues this model line had, head gaskets and wiring harness, have been done.

[iceman]

Looks pretty good for a car that's damn near 20 years old. How many miles on it?

[4matic]

Seems like a good place to post this.

I just bought a '94 MB E320 in pristine condition for $4,500 (yes I paid cash, so I can claim I need it not want it)

I just traded a 1994 E420 with 127k miles. It was a great car! Garaged all its life. py mileage but very solid and quiet. It ran well but needed wiring harness and throttle body actuator (if yours didn't have the TBA replaced it has the same problem as the engine wiring harness), had an electrical leak from the stereo and needed new tires and a windshield. It had gone into limp mode a couple times but it was manageable. It probably needed $5k in work to get it completely right.

I have some factory all weather rubber mats and a factory cover if you're interested. The cover has a tear but can be fixed for $10.

I traded it for an expensive car. I've been wanting one for a while so I did it. I like the car but probably overpaid. I have some remorse but I have that with everything i buy.

I've owned four different W124's so hit me up if you need any advice.

[wicked_sick]

I haven't paid more than 4k for any vehicle I've owned. Maybe one day...

[Danno]

Everyone seems to want to make this black and white, and it really isn't. Need vs want, for ex. Do you even need the car? Wouldn't a moped work? Oh, but it sucks to drive that when it rains? Suck it up, buttercup. The car itself isn't even a need, if you want to look at it that way. I refuse to buy a car that isn't AWD/4WD. For me, that's a need, not a want. But there are plenty of people who love to crow about how they drive all the time in snow country with FWD and snow tires and have no problems, and anyone who says they need 4wd is a pussy. Some people who have jobs where they drive clients around, or to client sites, may feel like they need a nice German sedan for their business, but would they lose out if they had a Dodge Stratus? They don't want to try and find out. I "need" a truck because I travel with dogs and gear all the time, but some would say they manage to get their dogs, kid, and gear in a Honda Civic.

And the whole consumer debt is bad or not is similarly a "gray" proposition. Depending on the person's circumstances, how much debt they take on, how much cash they have on hand, their "needs" in a car, etc, financing a car can be a good decision. I think most would agree that you shouldn't take on too much debt, and that lack of debt provides freedom, but I have a 1yo kid and a mortgage, how much freaking freedom is lack of a car payment going to give me right now? So in my calculus, taking on a small car payment to allow me to buy a truck that meets my needs and will do so for a long time (as opposed to buying an older vehicle that may fail sooner) made sense. 20 years from now, I might choose to not take on the car payment, but right now, it's no big deal.

[Art Shirk]

All this talk from people who have an affinity for paying a ton of money every year to slide down snow on expensive sticks. And then spending more money the year after to do the same. Steve, I bet you have 20K dollars retail worth of skiing and climbing gear in your garage. That shit will be worth 4K in 5 years. None of it has any utility beyond your personal enjoyment. Cars are the same for others. I think you are lumping cars into the american sheep debt cycle because you see more commercials for cars than you do for DPS, but it all comes from the exact same machine. I think the average american is a slave to debt, and I don't think anyone is arguing against taking a solid look at need versus want, but your implications about car lovers comes with a hint of hypocricy. Iceman said it in fewer words than this. "Who cares?" = we all weigh what enjoyment means to us and we are the only ones paying for it.

[powder11]

Personally, I need the reliability and presence of a new truck for my business (residential/commercial painting contractor), so it's a cost of doing business. Our family vehicle is an 03 Z71 suburban I recently picked up for 9k. I'm hoping it turns out to be that creampuff with minimal repairs. Only time will tell, but it always seems like you either pay the finance company for the reliability of a new vehicle or pay the local mechanic to fix/replace broken shit on a used vehicle.

[adampecush]

All this talk from people who have an affinity for paying a ton of money every year to slide down snow on expensive sticks. And then spending more money the year after to do the same. Steve, I bet you have 20K dollars retail worth of skiing and climbing gear in your garage. That shit will be worth 4K in 5 years. None of it has any utility beyond your personal enjoyment. Cars are the same for others. I think you are lumping cars into the american sheep debt cycle because you see more commercials for cars than you do for DPS, but it all comes from the exact same machine. I think the average american is a slave to debt, and I don't think anyone is arguing against taking a solid look at need versus want, but your implications about car lovers comes with a hint of hypocricy. Iceman said it in fewer words than this. "Who cares?" = we all weigh what enjoyment means to us and we are the only ones paying for it.

This exact thought just rolled through my head a few moments before I read your post, and it is spot on. The easy argument is that a 20 year old pair of elans will get you down the hill just fine, same as a '92 pontiac sunbird will get you from A to B. will you enjoy either experience? probably not.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

Heh, that was my second car. First was a 53 chevy, which I sold. Then I had the 78 datsun B210. Rallied the ever living shit out of the car. I am amazed at the abuse she took. A friend of mine and I jumped her at least 5 feet in the air one night while on acid, driving around on old dirt roads. Good times.

You're like my younger, evil twin.

I had a '78 Corolla when I was in my 20s and we did the same things with it. Used to get high as kites then rally the shit out of it on the roads up around Lost Lake. I haven't been up there since about '91 but back then there were miles and miles of logging roads through the clearcuts with drainage berms to air off of. One broken U-joint, one popped headgasket ('cause the radiator plugged up), one broken clutch cable were the only problems that car ever gave me. Tiny, tinny, slow (A 1.2L engine!), but reliable and rugged as hell.

[Kai]

The difference between a house and a car, is that you can pick up a perfectly serviceable car for not a lot of money, a house not so much. When you pay a few hundred dollars for a car, the total costs of ownership are low when compared with any new car. I've owned a number of beater cars, including a POS Subaru wagon that I bought used and that I still own. It's got more than 260,000 on the odometer and has been very reliable and inexpensive to maintain and drive. I never saw the reason to go into debt for a car. If you just want basic transportation, paying cash for an inexpensive car is an easy choice.

I assume you don't own a house, then? And didn't go to college? There are lots of things in modern life that aren't intended to be affordable up front, and cars are one of them. Do the math for total ownership costs per year (including financing costs, maintenance, gas, likely resale value, etc. as well as purchase price); it can end up costing you less per year over the life of the car to buy a newer, higher-quality car and finance it at a low rate. Plus it frees your finances up so that you can maintain cash flexibility and pay over time, rather than suddenly depleting your bank account and being screwed when, for example, your roof suddenly needs replacement and you have to take out a loan at a much higher rate to finance it.

The trick is to avoid letting your target price creep up simply because it seems less scary to take on a bigger purchase over time. But if you're comparing apples to apples - the same basic car with the same basic options, and just deciding whether to buy new and finance or used and pay up front - then you may find that you actually pay less in the end buying new and financing.

[Hugh Conway]

When you pay a few hundred dollars for a car, the total costs of ownership are low when compared with any new car.

a few hundred dollars for a registrable car that runs quasi-reliably? good fucking luck with that one. It's $1-2k for a 20 year old Civic.

[Huckwheat]

Just another data point......we only pay cash.
--04 AWD Sienna.
--00 Xterra
--59 Austin Healey (my first fun car....bought from my uncle).

I get the interest rate thing......but I think people end up getting talked into more expensive cars. If you buy a $25k car, at 2%......you still owe somebody $25k.

You can get a pretty reliable, nice vehicle for $10-$15 range......and at the end of the day that $10k under a new car.

[GeezerSteve]

Steve, I bet you have 20K dollars retail worth of skiing and climbing gear in your garage.

Something like that, if you are talking acquisition costs. This thread is about consumer debt -- more specifically car payments. The stuff in my gear room is irrelevant to that discussion because I paid cash for it. Before I had the means to buy my current level of gear with cash, I managed fine with cheaper gear, e.g., toured in leather tele boots and used downhill skis, climbed in SMC steel crampons, had my mountaineering boots resoled, etc. My level of gear has never stopped me from getting out there.

I think the average american is a slave to debt, and I don't think anyone is arguing against taking a solid look at need versus want, but your implications about car lovers comes with a hint of hypocricy [sic].

That consumer debt slavery is common makes it more, not less, tragic. Hypocrisy? Not sure where that's coming from. My words and actions on this issue are quite consistent. Consumer debt slowed my journey in life when I was a young man. When I realized that, I learned to live within my means and that's how I've lived the past two decades. My comments on this thread are wholly consistent with that.

I think you are lumping cars into the american sheep debt cycle because. . . .

I'm lumping in cars with other consumer chattel financed with debt because it's all consumer chattel financed with debt. I'm not talking about a guy like powder11 who takes on debt to buy a work vehicle as a result of an intelligent analysis re what tools will help him make a living.

Re "car lovers," nah, you don't need to go in debt to be a car lover. When I was a kid, car lovers were guys who fixed up old cars. They usually saved money vs. buying a new or late model used car. Those guys had contempt for a punk who bought a fancy new expensive car, whether it was financed with debt or with money from Daddy.

[XXX-er]

there could be lots of good reasons for a car loan and only you can answer the question if they are good or not, if you are spending money to make money well maybe that makes sense but at the end of the game its not how much money you make/made its how much you didn't spend

if you make a lot and spend more,

if you post in the whining and bitching threads about what you don't have

if you whine in the gas is too expensive thread

if life is passing you by and you don't get to do what you want ...maybe yer problem is you spend too much?


there are a few peeps here who get to live life on their terms ... not the banks

[Art Shirk]

Something like that, if you are talking acquisition costs. This thread is about consumer debt -- more specifically car payments. The stuff in my gear room is irrelevant to that discussion because I paid cash for it. Before I had the means to buy my current level of gear with cash, I managed fine with cheaper gear, e.g., toured in leather tele boots and used downhill skis, climbed in SMC steel crampons, had my mountaineering boots resoled, etc. My level of gear has never stopped me from getting out there.

That consumer debt slavery is common makes it more, not less, tragic. Hypocrisy? Not sure where that's coming from. My words and actions on this issue are quite consistent. Consumer debt slowed my journey in life when I was a young man. When I realized that, I learned to live within my means and that's how I've lived the past two decades. My comments on this thread are wholly consistent with that.

I'm lumping in cars with other consumer chattel financed with debt because it's all consumer chattel financed with debt. I'm not talking about a guy like powder11 who takes on debt to buy a work vehicle as a result of an intelligent analysis re what tools will help him make a living.

Re "car lovers," nah, you don't need to go in debt to be a car lover. When I was a kid, car lovers were guys who fixed up old cars. They usually saved money vs. buying a new or late model used car. Those guys had contempt for a punk who bought a fancy new expensive car, whether it was financed with debt or with money from Daddy.

I thought it was well agreed that we moved from debt to utility in this conversation, hence my comments. Everyday, the economically responsible person decides how best to put their money to work. As has been shown, debt is one way of making money work if return is greater elsewhere. We just boiled it down to what you want your money to work towards. You enjoy skiing, climbing, etc and you carve out expenditures for it. People who like nice leather, killer sound and 400 hp do the same. Both penchants only have a thread of utility running through them. Focusing on whether something is financed or not is a red herring; you are making a judgment call on how other people spend their money. Not trying to stir the pot, but any way you slice it, that is all it comes down too.

[GeezerSteve]

Everyday, the economically irresponsible person decides how to get a quick fix for their ephemeral petty material desires and thus sells another piece of his future to a bank.

FIFY

5678

[Todds]

Isn't the world ending this December? What cool things can I lease with the assumption that payments end when the world ends?