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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    381

    Is it Time for The Canyons to be more considerate with its terrain?

    The terrain N and S of 9990 is mostly visible from the chair and often tracked. It is so easy to get to and so much a part of the ski experience at the Canyons that it is easy to forget, especially for skiers inexperienced with the reality of wild terrain, the distinction between it and inbounds terrain.

    These signs:

    are always there and might make an impression on you the first time you leave the gate but by the 10th time you ignore them.

    The Canyons needs to:

    1] Make a better distinction on days when the avalanche hazard is 'high' or greater, like flashing lights at all big posted trail maps or flags at OB gates.

    2] Expand their boundary to include the easily accessed terrain off of peak 9990 and control it.

    The situation as it exists now is too much of a trap.
    Last edited by Sol Skier; 02-25-2012 at 09:00 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    The Canyons needs to:

    1] Make a better distinction on days when the avalanche hazard is 'high' or greater, like flashing lights at all big posted trail maps or flags at OB gates.

    Not a bad idea

    2] Expand their boundary to include the easily accessed terrain off of peak 9990 and control it.

    Easier said than done as its NFS land, not canyons property.

    I will let others who i know have a better grasp on it take it from here
    "If we can't bring the mountain to the party, let's bring the PARTY to the MOUNTAIN!"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    Wasatch Backside
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    But that area is NOT Canyons terrain. It's right next to it and easily visible obviously, but it's still not theirs. I'd say a sign with that day's avy warning might not be a bad idea, and I know certain dangerous stretches of road around the country post "___ have died here" signs, but they already have the giant skull and crossbones. I'm just worried the gates will eventually be closed off, shutting down the only real touring access we have in Park City unless you want to go play on Guardsman with the Slednecks.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    A LSD Steakhouse somewhere in the Wasatch
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    13,234
    Is it time for people to start to take more responsibility for their decisions to enter any terrain?
    Fuck yeah
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    greater utardia
    Posts
    513

    talisker=Park west w/ a nice strip mall l

    The skull and cross bones is little more than a photo op for a lot of folks. Flashing lights might get the attention if the avy danger is high. As Talisker makes its move to buy our forest service land for its ill thought out gondola maybe Our legislators cans give them the rest of the Wasatch. Should only cost a couple of thousand more in bribes.
    carpe diem vita brevis

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    381
    Say High Rustler at Alta was OB and uncontrolled. It was clearly roped and marked as such. It got skied a bunch, and was often tracked out. Pictures of people skiing it was used in marketing materials. Skiing it was a big part of the experience for visitors. Then it snows, hazard goes to high, and someone gets buried.

    Yes, you could say they should have paid more attention, and you would be right. But wouldn't that also be a little irresponsible of management?

    The Canyons situation isn't that extreme, but it is a little bit like that.

    I know this is a complex issue.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    JH/AK/Los Andes
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    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    Is it time for people to start to take more responsibility for their decisions to enter any terrain?
    Fuck yeah
    This X1000


    And... a totally coherent post from sfb? You ok down there man?
    "The idea wasnt for me, that I would be the only one that would ever do this. My idea was that everybody should be doing this. At the time nobody was, but this was something thats too much fun to pass up." -Briggs
    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Wear your climbing harness. Attach a big anodized locker to your belay loop so its in prime position to hit your nuts. Double russian Ti icescrews on your side loops positioned for maximal anal rape when you sit down. Then everyone will know your radness
    More stoke, less shit.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Park City
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    Is it time for people to start to take more responsibility for their decisions to enter any terrain?
    Fuck yeah
    +1.

    Doug Coombs may have just rolled over in his grave at the thought of resorts closing their gates. Lets all try and take responsibility for our own actions. Being a real skier/boarder should include the knowledge of what backcounry is and the dangers associated with it. Anything less than that is pretty ignorant.

    I have always got the feeling from the skull and crossbones at the Canyons that the ignorant go up there and get the impression that it is dangerous because the terrain is so EXTREME. It's like "hey take my picture next to this rad sign, so I can show it to my cubicle buddies and they will know how EXTREME I am". Many of them have no concept or undersatanding of avy terrain or the associated dangers. If anything the Canyons needs to reconsider the actual signage and come up with something that more correctly reflects the actual dangers.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    381
    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    Is it time for people to start to take more responsibility for their decisions to enter any terrain?
    Fuck yeah
    Yes.

    But the Canyons setup is a little bit of a trap, and that is inconsiderate.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Park City
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    17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sol Skier View Post
    Yes.

    But the Canyons setup is a little bit of a trap, and that is inconsiderate.
    How is it any different from the gates in JH? or any other North American resort?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    Was UT, AK, now MT
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    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    Is it time for people to start to take more responsibility for their decisions to enter any terrain?
    Fuck yeah
    /End of thread.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    8530' MST/200' EST
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol Skier View Post
    Yes.

    But the Canyons setup is a little bit of a trap, and that is inconsiderate.
    With that mentality everything that could be ill conceived by the resort or dangerous (our sport is inherently dangerous) is inconsiderate and should be regulated or controlled.
    "If we can't bring the mountain to the party, let's bring the PARTY to the MOUNTAIN!"

  13. #13
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    Mar 2008
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    northern BC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol Skier View Post
    It got skied a bunch, and was often tracked out. Pictures of people skiing it was used in marketing materials. Skiing it was a big part of the experience for visitors. Then it snows, hazard goes to high, and someone gets buried.

    Yes, you could say they should have paid more attention, and you would be right. But wouldn't that also be a little irresponsible of management?

    They did that up here this year, the managment cut an egress trail out of the side country, had an artical in the local rag and the cat driver has been grooming a trail way out of bounds and coming back in which makes the day a little easyier

    The boundry is clearly marked and all it tells you is to be aware you are in the BC ... take care of yourself

    A couple of weeks ago I seen a buddy out there with 5 or 6 young rippers from his primary school class so I jumped in as the tailgunner, it sounded like he was schooling those kids on how to do it properly but they were all speaking french ...maybe education is the answer ?

  14. #14
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    Mar 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    Is it time for people to start to take more responsibility for their decisions to enter any terrain?
    Fuck yeah
    This.

    With respect to the dead of course.

  15. #15
    doughboyshredder Guest
    Let me preface this by saying I am completely ignorant of the chair and terrain in question.

    While they may not be able to require gear to exit the gates, can they not require it to load the chair?

    Baker does this on Ch. 6 during high avy danger.

    Don't one or two of the Montana resorts do the same thing?

    Seems like a good solution during times of high avy danger.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
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    Sandy
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    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    Is it time for people to start to take more responsibility for their decisions to enter any terrain?
    Fuck yeah
    Whoooooaaaa there buddy, lawyers gotta eat too


    I figure the only real thing the Canyons could do is move the gate or chair. An hour of boot packing would cut down on the traffic.... Red flags and flashing lights are great, but it starts to add to the Canyons liability. If they don't put the flags up or update the conditions and someone gets killed, boom, the canyons is at fault because the conditions report wasn't updated. Same thing with closing the gates. If they gates are open and someone gets hurt/killed, it can be argued that the Canyons decided it was safe enough to go out of bound when it wasn't.

    I wonder if the snow culture in the US could do a better job of promoting BC safety. I watched most of this years ski/board flicks and can't remember a single piece that showed the bro brahs digging pits and talking about how they decided the line they were dropping was safe, and all the safety teams they have in place... You start to get the idea going into uncontrolled areas isn't a big deal... Would 5 minutes of education in a ski film detract from the entertainment?
    I saw plenty of segments with people gang banging prime avy terrain though..

    BB, 9990 lift is a the 'crown jewel' of the resort and servers mostly pretty tame terrain by TGR standards, 99% of the people that load it have no intention of going out the gate, so requiring gear to load wouldn't work for business. Bridger Bowl requires avy gear to hike the ridge, but the check gear at the gate for the bootpack.
    Last edited by sfotex; 02-25-2012 at 10:31 AM.
    When life gives you haters, make haterade.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    1
    Bridger Bowl in Montana makes you carry a transiever on schlushmans left and they check to see that it is sending a signal before you get on the lift.

  18. #18
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    Sep 2009
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    Albany, NY
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    848
    The flag system works very well at the beach. I rarely see people in the water when the red flags are flying, even though the water looks safe from the beach. Rip currents are a little like avalanches.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Telemarktwitville
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    23
    [QUOTE=Rudyj2;3560501]+1.
    Doug Coombs may have just rolled over in his grave at the thought of resorts closing their gates.[QUOTE]

    WTF, I guess if you can divine that Coombs would rollover in his grave that you are not pretty ignorant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rudyj2 View Post
    +1.
    Lets all try and take responsibility for our own actions.
    Easy for you to say. The Grim Reaper knows about responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rudyj2 View Post
    +1.

    If anything the Canyons needs to reconsider the actual signage and come up with something that more correctly reflects the actual dangers.
    Perhaps the Canyons should close the friggin gate on High or Considerate AVY days like many resorts would do. This cannot be too complex. I have seen plenty of places do it in the past.

    Another solution is the Crested Butte solution and how they mitigate/control the NF, PB, JB, etc.

    Less people in the Wasatch backcountry is noit such a bad idea is it?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ventura Highway in the Sunshine
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    22,431
    We need to be more like Europe. If you go off-piste it is your problem, not the resorts. At the top of most of their gondolas is a nice big board with the days avi condition. If you choose to ignore it, it is your problem, not theirs. Not that they won't dig out your sorry ass, but they might charge you for it as well. On top of that there is a typically a generic warning sign when you are leaving the regular ski area.

    It is not patrols responsibility to post avi conditions at every gate, but a large board at the prominent lifts/gondis would be a good idea and less of a liability for the resort to maintain.

    Closing gates is not a good thing to do and hurts those who put in the effort to ski safe, but it is not the resort responsibility (nor liability) to police those gates.

    While no disrespect to the dead, people need to heed the warnings, because they not only put themselves in danger, which is their choice, but they also endanger those called out to rescue/recover them from their poor judgement.

    I agree it is a constitutional right for Americans to be assholes...its just too bad that so many take the opportunity...
    iscariot

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    A LSD Steakhouse somewhere in the Wasatch
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfotex View Post
    Whoooooaaaa there buddy, lawyers gotta eat too


    I figure the only real thing the Canyons could do is move the gate or chair. An hour of boot packing would cut down on the traffic.... Red flags and flashing lights are great, but it starts to add to the Canyons liability. If they don't put the flags up or update the conditions and someone gets killed, boom, the canyons is at fault because the conditions report wasn't updated. Same thing with closing the gates. If they gates are open and someone gets hurt/killed, it can be argued that the Canyons decided it was safe enough to go out of bound when it wasn't.

    I wonder if the snow culture in the US could do a better job of promoting BC safety. I watched most of this years ski/board flicks and can't remember a single piece that showed the bro brahs digging pits and talking about how they decided the line they were dropping was safe, and all the safety teams they have in place... You start to get the idea going into uncontrolled areas isn't a big deal... Would 5 minutes of education in a ski film detract from the entertainment?

    BB, 9990 lift is a the 'crown jewel' of the resort and servers mostly pretty tame terrain by TGR standards, 99% of the people that load it have no intention of going out the gate, so requiring gear to load wouldn't work for business. Bridger Bowl requires avy gear to hike the ridge, but the check gear at the gate for the bootpack.
    Such a double edged sword in the legalities with open acess vrs. protecting/preventing these tragedies
    much like the funding for know before you go and other uac programs /info coming from sponserships/links to the
    sidecountry sesssions.
    Not that i have bothered to see just what the side-country sessions or marketing shizz is or entails
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    crown of the continent
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    13,947
    Quote Originally Posted by hutash View Post
    While no disrespect to the dead, people need to heed the warnings, because they not only put themselves in danger, which is their choice, but they also endanger those called out to rescue/recover them from their poor judgement.
    And not to at all diminish the tragedy of the avi losses this year, given that almost every region of the western US have had times of really bad avi conditions so far this season, to me it suggests that a lot of people have been making a lot of good decisions out there. You never read about the times that skiers choose less exposed/riskier lines because they listen to their training, warnings, gut, others in their group, etc.
    Something about the wrinkle in your forehead tells me there's a fit about to get thrown
    And I never hear a single word you say when you tell me not to have my fun
    It's the same old shit that I ain't gonna take off anyone.
    and I never had a shortage of people tryin' to warn me about the dangers I pose to myself.

    Patterson Hood of the DBT's

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    42
    This is not a problem with resort responsibility. In JH there are avi conditions posted on every gate and I'm not surprised any longer to see people without proper gear/experience level hiking up cody or skiing rock springs. There is no realistic way around this problem. As SFB said people just need to take responsibility for their actions, which I personally don't think will happen anytime soon.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2,503
    like flashing lights at all big posted trail maps or flags at OB gates.
    Is this a troll? Then Skull and Crossbones becomes ignored and eventually the flashing lights become ignored as well. Then what? Europe gets it....we dont.
    No offense to Sol but does anybody here think flashing lights is a step in the right direction? Jeez this place is getting soft.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    33,440
    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    Is it time for people to start to take more responsibility for their decisions to enter any terrain?
    Fuck yeah
    Absolutely.

    That local folk who should know better make bad decisions is probably the hardest thing to understand.
    A quick recollection of the deaths OB at The Canyons seems like it's mostly young guys with time in the mountains who simply felt it couldn't happen to them. I could be wrong, but maybe the best place to start in educating people is to target the most likely demographic to make these mistakes.

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