Review: 2012/2013 ON3P 191 Billygoat

[PowTron]

31 Days tested so far (as of 12/19/2012):

Ski Specs: 191 cm, 145/118/128, 29.2m radius, 1 to 2 mm of camber, Reverse Elliptical Sidecut (RES) from Boot Center forward, Bamboo Core, Dual Strips of Carbon (one on top, one on bottom of core), full rocker measurements to follow in update



Me: 5'10", 205 lbs, ski fast and prefer big ass turns in almost all types of snow. I can turn it short just fine when needed (trees), but why bother when it is wide open?

Boots / Binders: Lange RX120 and Atomic FFG 14, mounted at -9 (recommended)

Other skis ridden/owned in similar category: 191 ON3P Billygoat (2011), 191 ON3P Wren (2010), 191 ON3P Caylor (2009), 195 Rossi Super7 (2011), 190 Moment Bibby (2009), 185/195 Line Mothership (2010)


First Impression: Very solid medium-stiff flex, lightweight for the size of the skis, and bomber construction. New tip shape and added rocker up front (lower in tail) vs. the 2011 191 Billygoat is apparent when held right next to each other. Lots of pop when hand flexed, reverse sidecut up front has me drooling to ski them.

Results of real world...

Groomers / Packed Powder:

The immediate take away from riding this ski on packed powder and groomers is just how much better it hooks up when skied in a centered/slightly forward stance when compared to the 2011/2012 191 Billygoat, and especially when compared to older BG versions (186).

The new tip shape when combined with the beef of the sidecut being directly under your heel inspires confidence in laying down huge, deep trenches when compared to previous model years, and is on par with the 195 Super7 from Rossi. They even start to approach the confidence level of the 191 Wren (2010), but obviously stop short of the pure carving power the Wren possesses. They are close enough, however for me to not want to ride the Wren much at all unless I was looking for a charger specific ski (and there are days we all enjoy that).

This is no knock on the Wren, it is just that the new 191 BG is close enough to matter and then is so much quicker in short turns than the Wren (2010). Due to the sidecut being slightly smaller, and the increased rocker in the tip with the still present taper, it is also a given that the BG turns faster than the Wren(2010) does.

When compared to the Caylor or Bibby, the BG also comes close to holding it's own, but does not have the same locked in feeling that those two skis do for easy groomer skiing. The Caylor and the Bibby are much closer to a traditional sidecut than the BG, but the BG does more than a commendable job and just takes some adjustment to find the sweet spot before being able to stand over your arches and the heel and dig them in.

No big surprise in the short turn section, but major surprise in the medium and long turning ability of the BG to flat out mach on groomers and not feel like you are going to blow up or have the uphill ski track away from you and give you a free vasectomy, courtesy of ON3P.


Crud / Mank / Windblown:

Without hesitation, I can attest that this is the most versatile ski in windblown, crud, manky, chopped-up pow I have owned. Some skis are better in pure crud (195 Mothership), some are better in deeper windblown (12"+) pow day stuff (Caylor/Bibby), but none have the range and overall ease of use that the new 191 BG does.

Any turn shape, and at any speed I was able to blast through drifts, slash through 4" to 12" of chopped up, tracked out inbounds pow when leaning into the shovel, and slarve around and be playful when backing off and skiing from center. They handle the manky snow better and with a lighter feeling than the 195 Super 7, but the Super 7 does have more of the damp feeling associated with metal layup...so pick your poison there I guess.

When directly compared to the older versions of BG's, they are head and shoulders above on the LIKE scale for me in this type of snow (day after pow day, wind affected-chopped-mank of 3" to 12" or so). They feel about 50 lbs lighter on your feet than the Rossi Super7, and will dive into this type of snow with much more authority than the older versions of the BG. I firmly believe the extra tip rocker height and length is directly responsible for this feeling of confidence when slamming into chopped pow or windblown when transitioning off of a groomer at 35 mph+.

Overall, not as playful as the Caylor or a Bibby, not as hard charging or submarine-like as Motherships, not as authoritative or powerful as the Wren, and not as heavy and damp as the Super 7...BUT, it does all things better as a whole than all of the previous mentioned skis in windblown/mank/chopped pow.


Powder / Deep Powder:

We have had a rough snow year in Northern Colorado, to say the least. Even when it does dump, you have to be extremely careful as the base is just not there like it usually is. With that said, we finally had an upslope storm (25" in the city, 30 to 50" in the foothills) to do some hiking with the BG's and get a few runs of true BLOWER pow testing in.

The new BG tip shape and added rocker are perfect for powder...and the Reverse Elliptical sidecut that I am in love with on the C&D also is applied here. It floats side-to-side when you want it to in really deep snow, but then can also slash and charge when you lean into the tips of the skis when needed.

Again, all turn shapes are easy to initiate on this ski in pow and really deep pow, and the extra sidecut in the tail for the 2013 actually makes this a better pow ski in my opinion (as far as tracking in longer, high speed turns in pow) goes. I am not usually a fan of pin-tail shapes without a lot of width factored in, but this new BG is perfect for a "pow-light" ski for me.

Don't get me wrong, this may be more than enough width and length for many folks out there...but all of my powder and super deep blower comparisons now are matched up against the 193 C&D (2012), so it isn't really much of a fair competition .

When comparing to skis that are more closely related, the BG is so much easier on your body and stamina than the Super 7 or Motherships. They again feel about 50 lbs lighter, but more importantly turn and pivot much better at SLOWER speeds than those skis do. In tight trees, super narrow rock fields, and packed down gully run outs, the BG can charge but also be skied very slow, in control, and with pivot turns with minimal effort. In fact, the new 191 BG is almost as fast and quick turning as the 186's of the past few years in short, tight spaces...but does need just a LITTLE more room and speed than those.

They charge better in pow than Caylors, which is saying a lot. The Caylor does pivot better, but the much larger tail rocker and closer to centered mount is a good reason for that.

I had a blast on these in the really deep, and they felt like a mini-C&D in this snow up front with the reverse sidecut. Would this be my first choice of ski for days over a foot? No, but they can more than stand up to other larger, wider skis in my quiver from the past and are much lighter and smooth gliding then Super 7's in powder in my personal opinion.

Once again, one of the better deep pow skis I have ridden that can also be an inbounds ski that you don't have to swap out at noon.

Summary

I have been blown away by this ski as a possible best of jack of all variable trades and conditions pair of sticks in a long time. As a theme in my review, you can see that I find them to be "just right" in almost every condition, and a vast improvement on groomers and packed powder over the previous Billygoats I have ridden. I will still lust and grab a fatter pair of boards for really deep days, but that is just because I am gluttonous and have that option (or should again really soon). The BG can more than handle everything you throw at it with more than just an inch or two of snow.

Where I am confident this ski is on the top of an ALL TIME list in my head is in the conditions that most of us face when skiing...day after the big storm, ducking out the gates for a sidecountry lap after the inbounds stuff is tracked, wind affected and sunbaked mank-chop, etc. It is at home at any speed...and I do mean any speed, including Mach Looney...in this variable snow and recycled pow.

As for any changes I could recommend, I do want to hold off until I have at least 8 to 10 days on these to ensure it is not just me getting used to the ski vs. an actual change I would preach about. Even if there are a couple of things in my mind, they are extremely minimal and would just be nitpicking to tweak the ski ever-so-slightly.

If you ski the Wren in a more traditional manner, and really want a crud buster and hard snow ski, then I still see the need for it...but if a Wren customer wants something more versatile that also charges with no speed limit and can still handle groomers well, the 191 BG is going to cover that.

They are now affectionately called the ULTRAGOAT in my mind every time I look at them.

Grade: A

[unpossible]

Awesome review PT. I particularly enjoy the specific comparisons to other skis that you have ridden.

[wcf3]

Thanks for the excellent review. I went back and forth a bunch deciding between these, the caylors and bibbys. Finally went with the caylors, but I can see the positives of the BG's design in a number of situations. I'm guessing that the BG's aren't quite as sensitive to body position and weighting (particularly at speed) in variable snow as the caylors.

Good to hear from someone who has ridden all these.

[Karl May]

Wow, those things sound awsome, thank for the review. I've been drooling over those skis since the SIA pictures came out. Way to go, ON3P!

[bern43]

Are the "old" 191s noticeably sketchier on hardback? I was hoping with this year's newer shape those issues would be largely gone.

[CaliBrit]

OK so you are putting them in the mail for Tahoe testing right?

[PowTron]

Are the "old" 191s noticeably sketchier on hardback? I was hoping with this year's newer shape those issues would be largely gone.

They seem to have gotten better every year in my opinion. So this year's (2011/2012 - 1st year 191) are a lot better than last year's ( 186 - 2010/2011), and MUCH, MUCH better than the 2009-2010 186 BG on hardpack and groomers.

But none seem to be as stable as next year's (2012/2013) I own and reviewed.

Hope that clears it up and doesn't make it even more confusing...lots of progression in this ski so far over the last few years!

[whyturn]

Rocker pics please!
Tail rocker is diminshed?

[PowTron]

Rocker pics please!
Tail rocker is diminshed?

I promise to put those up soon. Yes, tail rocker is slightly diminished from the 11/12, and tip rocker is slightly increased from the 11/12.

[wren]

Wicked review Jay. I'm so excited to get out on these. Definitely interested in comparing them back to back against the 2012 Wrenegade (which is a different beast from years past) and hopefully the 2013 Wrenegade as well.

[PowTron]

Wicked review Jay. I'm so excited to get out on these. Definitely interested in comparing them back to back against the 2012 Wrenegade (which is a different beast from years past) and hopefully the 2013 Wrenegade as well.

Yeah, the only Wren comparisons I had were from previous years...for sure know and can see the differences in this year's and next year's.

Let me know as soon as you get a chance what you think! I am so amped on this ski.

[Poop~Ghost]

2011/2012 Pix -

Mounted with my FKS.

I've only got 3 days on my pair - so I will hold off on a big review until I give them a solid 10 days.

Short review is that they pivot in deep snow as easy as a 185 praxis pow - with all the stability of a Legend Pro in chop and runouts. Also bases seem impervious to hard left turns on rocks.

[auvgeek]

PowTron, how does it compare to the OG C&D?

Also, can you explain what "reverse elliptical sidecut" is and how it differs from "taper"?

[PowTron]

2011/2012 Pix -

Mounted with my FKS.

I've only got 3 days on my pair - so I will hold off on a big review until I give them a solid 10 days.

Short review is that they pivot in deep snow as easy as a 185 praxis pow - with all the stability of a Legend Pro in chop and runouts. Also bases seem impervious to hard left turns on rocks.

Get your 2012 crap out of my thread, you damn hippie!!! This is all about the 2013.



The RES (reverse elliptical sidecut) is exactly what it sounds like, auvgeek. From about your boot mid-sole forward, the ski is a true reverse sidecut ski. It skis like it in powder, but when combined with the taper of the ski up front actually gives you a contact point on harder snow. I first got to feel this last year while riding some of THIS year's (2012) Cease and Desist, and it blew my mind. It is amazing how this functions when compared to what we usually think of when we talk full reverse sidecut skis...remember, this RES is actually on the current model year 191 BG, but will be on all sizes for 2013 from my understanding.

As for comparing this to the OG C&D, it is similar but holds an edge on groomers with a lot less effort. They feel just as fast, and the elliptical rocker planes a lot better in my opinion than the original C&D. They are both fairly similar in stiffness with the OG C&D edging the 2013 BG out slightly on the stiff scale (stiffer).

I could really feel some of these differences...one thing I love about the type of transparency you get from ON3P is that it is real. They are not going to blow smoke up your ying-yang because they are very up front about what they are doing design and construction-wise
when the general public is concerned.

[curtf]

Thanks for the comprehensive and informative review, PT. I'm glad your "other" job didn't prevent you from putting this all down (and getting out on the skis) any longer than it did Keep the reports coming as you get out on them more and post those pics when you get the chance. Looks like another long, narrow package on the porch is going to cause me some marital stife...

[JFE24]

Are the "old" 191s noticeably sketchier on hardback? I was hoping with this year's newer shape those issues would be largely gone.

First: thanks for the nice write up, Powtron.

And bern43: I haven't skied the 12/13 BG, but just wanted to throw in my .02 to say that I would say that the sketchiness on hardpack is largely gone with the 11/12 model. I.e., If you were thinking of picking up a pair of 11/12s, hardpack performance wouldn't stop me from pulling the trigger. But it's great to hear that ON3P may have managed again to tweak and improve things even further.

[superstator]

First: thanks for the nice write up, Powtron.

And bern43: I haven't skied the 12/13 BG, but just wanted to throw in my .02 to say that I would say that the sketchiness on hardpack is largely gone with the 11/12 model. I.e., If you were thinking of picking up a pair of 11/12s, hardpack performance wouldn't stop me from pulling the trigger. But it's great to hear that ON3P may have managed again to tweak and improve things even further.

I've tried both, and while I could definitely see a difference with the 12/13's, the 11/12's were plenty good enough to not want to wait for next season...

[PowTron]

I've tried both, and while I could definitely see a difference with the 12/13's, the 11/12's were plenty good enough to not want to wait for next season...

Yes, this is a lot of what I was trying to convey in the review. One thing I do notice on the 12/13 is with the slightly more boxy tip, I was able to lean into them more and not feel as concerned as I am on the 11/12, or especially the older models.

I think it comes down to style and stance, but overall the 191 BG just kills it.

[MJbumper1121]

Thank you for the in-depth review!

I am really curious to experience first hand the difference between 11/12 the 12/13 on hardpack as well as the RES in pow. I love the way the 11/12 191's ski on hardpack/groomed (coming from 188 s7's), and am excited to think of the 12/13 are even better.

ON3P colorado demo day??

[XavierD]

Thank you for the in-depth review!

I am really curious to experience first hand the difference between 11/12 the 12/13 on hardpack as well as the RES in pow.

ON3P colorado demo day??

Your 191s have RES in them.

[klauss]

^Is that the same as flipcore or we talking the res i used to scrape?

[MJbumper1121]

Scott made it sound like the res had been tweaked on the 2012/2013. That is what I was trying to say.

[PowTron]

Scott made it sound like the res had been tweaked on the 2012/2013. That is what I was trying to say.

I believe there is a slight change in where it transitions along the length of the sidecut? Maybe Scott or Rowen will chime in, I am not sure of the exact details.

[XavierD]

There is a tweak. still love my 11.12 191s to death.

[PowTron]

Update (2/11/12): Another day of pow to windblown pow yesterday at Monarch...the skis just keep getting better and better the more I get used to them. Got to open them up in the short chutes of Elation and in some pillow lines on Staircase.

They are so stable landing small to medium drops, and I assume they would be on large ones but the snowpack is just not ready yet for anything big